RAISE MINIMUM WAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

Below is a non-bias article proving what I said above. Funny how the Union Leaders blame executives … I wonder how much of that salary is paid to the Unions for dues? Ever seen what kind of car the Union Executives Drive?

Point is this, you will lose the Union debate based on facts as shown here. Unions are now needless overhead…just ask the non-union autoworkers!

I was not clear on my “protected worker” comment. Essentially, we employers are not allowed to discriminate when hiring (which I agree with), but HR groups FORCE them to discriminate when firing someone. I’ve been told I need to be extra careful because they are not being productive, but they are over 40, so we have to be “extra” careful — I should be able to hire and fire on ability and not have to worry about the rest. You cite these wonderful role models: “Dr. King, Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony”. I’m glad you did…one thing none of them did … complain because they were in tough situations! They did something about it without excuses!

The problem with minimum wage is that it really only affects small business, but can be a huge hit to them. Our point is this, most people making that wage are either a.) working in a restaraunt not claiming most their tips or b.) living off another dependant. Point being that it hurts small businesses from growing and expanding to a point where they can afford to pay people more. Call Heritage what you want, those are facts from the US Government.

As for compassion for struggling people, I would love to see your facts. As I’ve stated before, how many are just too lazy and don’t want to work? I’ll tell you this, I’ve heard panhandlers admit they do it for extra money while working 9-5 making 60K / year. I’ve given money to those who “look” like they’re in need. I donate to charity and donate my time to help kids in need.

The difference between you and I is that you want government to handle everything (which is why our public school systems SUCK)and I don’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

Finally, if I feel at some point that I don’t live in the greatest country in the world, I would move elsewhere.

Ahh, yes. Unions. The evil union is responsible for the demise of the home, the family and traditional values. Also, “they single handedly took down the auto companies.” Wow. That is quite a feat. I mean, I thought the demise of the auto industry was largely because of the combined effects of globalization (decreasing dollar value, increased competition, etc.), as well as the fact that we put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak (you know, not diversifying our industry). The UAW, and all unions, is not infallible. It is imperfect, just like anything involving large groups of people. But you can thank them for the weekend. And I just can’t understand why the UAW would destroy the livelihood of its members by bringing down the US auto industry. Unions ensure that workers have a place at the table, so that they can have a say in legislation that impacts them.

I am aware of the definition of protected workers. I asked only because you seem confused. You say that, “There are 2 types of workers in this country, protected and unprotected. Protected workers will always have employment because they are productive. Unprotected workers may struggle becuase (sic) they were not productive enough for their employers to keep them.” And then you say that I, “should look up ‘protected’ workers — its an HR term that describes anyone but young white males.” So are you saying that young, white males aren’t productive, and that’s why they are unemployed? Are productive workers always protected? Can young, white males ever be protected? Can women/minorities be unproductive? Your definitions/claims don’t seem to line up.

So, on to your cited information. Let’s assume that the neo-conservative research group The Heritage Foundation’s findings are unbiased and accurate, and a very tiny percentage of American workers make the minimum wage. So tiny, in fact, that it’s insignificant, and makes no difference. Then why are you and Mr. Gillman making a fuss? Why is it such a problem for a tiny portion of Americans to be guaranteed the federal or state minimum wage? If we abolish the minimum wage to decrease unemployment, as Mr. Gillman suggests and you seem to support, “Will it really make that great of an impact?” as you asked in your latest post. Based on the information you presented me, reducing the pay of 1.1% of the poorest Americans just doesn’t seem like it would reduce unemployment.

You’re right, I do have compassion for those who struggle. The vast majority of people who struggle work hard; they aren’t lazy or stupid, despite claims by people like you who perpetuate that hateful stereotype. Many people who struggle haven’t had access to resources that other, more affluent, citizens have had. Not every child can go to a private school, despite your claims to the contrary, nor does every community have a charter school. We still have massive gender and racial inequity in our personal and professional lives. All of these factors contribute to a hierarchy of class and oppression. When people threaten to change this hierarchy (civil rights advocates, women’s rights activists, the labor movement, etc.) they are often told to “love it or leave it” by those who hope to instill fear. It didn’t work with social justice activists of the past (you know, folks like Dr. King, Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony), nor will it work with our current grassroots movement. And if you don’t like that, than you can leave…just kidding I will always stand up for your rights as an American citizen, and I will never ask you to leave because we don’t agree.

Here is your data:

Relatively few Americans earn the federal minimum wage.[1] In 2005, 1.9 million Americans reported earning $5.15 or less per hour.[2] This amounted to 2.5 percent of all workers earning hourly wages and 1.5 percent of all workers in the United States. But these numbers include workers who also earn tip income. Many of those earning less than the minimum wage work in restaurants and so make more than the minimum after taking their tips into account. Using another measure of earnings that includes tips, 1.3 million Americans earn the minimum wage or less per hour, or 1.1 percent of the total working population.[3]

The Young

Most workers who earn the minimum wage or less fall into two categories: young workers, usually in school, and older workers who have left school. The majority of minimum wage-earners fall into the first category: 53 percent of those earning $5.15 or less per hour are between the ages of 16 and 24. [4] The remainder are 25 years of age or older.

Table 1
Demographic Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers

16-24 years old 25+ Total
Men 35.2% 33.6% 34.4%
Women 64.8% 66.4% 65.6%
White 83.6% 79.5% 81.7%
Black 11.1% 11.8% 11.4%
Asian 1.7% 5.4% 3.4%
Married 4.8% 42.5% 22.5%

Wage and Income Characteristics of Minimum Wage Earners

Part Time 67.0% 55.6% 61.7%
Full Time 33.0% 44.4% 38.3%
Avg. Family Income $64,273 $33,606 $49,885
At or Below the Poverty Line 16.9% 22.8% 19.5%
Family Income > 200% of Poverty Line 64.7% 44.8% 56.1%

Education Levels of Minimum Wage Workers

Less Than High School 36.3% 22.0% 29.8%
High School Graduate 20.9% 38.5% 29.1%
Some College 35.6% 20.5% 28.5%
Associates Degree 3.4% 8.5% 5.8%
Bachelors Degree or Higher 3.4% 10.6% 6.8%

Source: Heritage Foundation calculations based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2005 Current Population Survey and merged outgoing rotation group files

Minimum wage workers under 25 are typically not their family’s sole breadwinner. Rather, they live in middle-class households that do not rely on their earnings. For the most part, they have not finished their schooling and are working part-time jobs. These workers represent the largest group that would directly benefit from a higher minimum wage.

Here are a few important characteristics of the teenagers and young adults who earn the minimum wage or less:

•Fully 67 percent work part-time jobs.
•Their average family income is $64,000 per year.
•Only 17 percent live at or below the poverty line, while 65 percent enjoy family incomes over twice the poverty line.[5]
•They have less education than the population as a whole. Fully 36 percent have not completed high school, and 21 percent have only a high school degree. Another 37 percent have taken college courses but do not yet have a bachelor’s degree; many of these are college students working part-time while in school.
•Fully 65 percent are women.
•Only 5 percent are married.

All from the Heritage.org sourced from the bureau of labor statistics. Explain to me why we need to raise this? For college students? Will it really make that great of an impact? — I’ll answer for you NO! Trust me, those working in restaurants DO NOT claim all their tips!

Regards,

Noah

I apologize if I’ve somehow persecuted you. My point was to simply point out a freedom you have — moving somewhere that better suits your percieved lifestyle.

I agree, we all have our opinions, and you and I clearly don’t agree. You should look up “protected” workers — its an HR term that describes anyone but young white males.

You obviously don’t know enough about Unions to speak too much about their impact. I’ve done many studies to show the inefficies caused by the way unions work and tell you this — they single handedly took down the auto companies — not the CEO’s. Read about the teachers Unions in NY that have 700 teachers being paid for not working because of a Union contract that does not allow them to be fired for misconduct — they get paid for nothing!

As for my private education – yes, many others were afforded the opportunity through scholarships, so to say not everyone has access, that’s not true. You should also research some charter schools – private education funded by tax dollars. They are the reason Chicago Schools are in the tank. The consumer chooses where their tax dollars go by sending their kids to those schools. I also went to CMU and received the same student loans almost anyone could have received — especially if they made less than my family.

You are just more compassionate for those who struggle and make excuses for themselves. Which is why I cited a move (true story) about a man who simply REFUSED to do so. Yes, it was fact, not just a movie.

If I was in a fact to face debate, I would also pull actual data and use information from studies .. this is just a discussion forum and no points are being awarded here. I would also bring the classified add and show you how many jobs are available paying well more than the minimum wage — again, too many spoiled, uneducated auto workers don’t want to do anything else.

The minimum wage is not a redistribution of wealth; it is a check/balance to the power of business, just as our three branches of government act as checks/balances to each other. I find it very curious that you stated, “I would argue they (blue-collar workers) had the same access to college that I did,” and yet, in your latest post, you stated that you were sent to private schools. Case in point- not everyone has access to a private education, not everyone begins life as an adult on an even playing field. With that private education came privileges that some people did not have. It’s admirable that your parents made sacrifices to send you to private schools. Not every parent can make those sacrifices.

And perhaps when you, “tell someone thats been griping in the auto industry to start their own business they give me a blank stare and say ‘huh’?”, they are merely staring at you in disbelief over the sheer audacity of your suggestion. New businesses require money. Typically, large sums of money. Blue-collar auto workers (or custodians, waitresses, the unemployed, etc.) don’t have money. That’s the problem. They’ll have even less money if we let employers hire people for $5 an hour, as Mr. Gillman suggests. So they’re employed? I’ll cite one of my earlier posts: “None of that matters if we have people who cannot feed their families, pay their rent or afford health care. Sweatshop laborers are employed. Indentured servants are employed. Slaves are employed. Are these things positive for humanity? No.”

I’m also still curious as to what a “protected” worker is? And as for your comment on unions, you’re very right, unions are out to protect their membership, just as big business is out to protect itself. At least union members elect their leaders. Government is imperfect, but, again, at least we elect those leaders. Business leaders are unelected and largely unregulated. Putting my health, education and personal well-being into the hands of the free market makes me nervous.

I never said you would fail in a debate. I did, however, say that, “You would be laughed out of any face-to-face debate if your response to an opponent’s point was, ‘go somewhere else.’” And that is very true, you would be laughed out of that debate. The “if-you-don’t-like-it-you-can-leave” rhetoric is (yawn) boring and, quite frankly, pathetic. You are a citizen. You have the right to express your opinion, as do I, without fear of persecution. I think we can both agree that the beauty of our country lies with that fact. Please keep that in mind.

Your entire arguemnt has been based off opinion, not fact. You would be laughed at in a debate because of this. Here is my fact on your argument.

K-12 school programs (government run) are the worst of any Industrialized Nation. This is a fact. My parents sacraficed and sent me to private schools. Notice how Medicare and Medicaid are going bankrupt faster and faster each year? And Social Security? SS was not intended to be a social fund, but a retirement fund for only those who put money into it. The truth is, government is not as efficient as people like yourself would like to believe. I would agree that if the government was a non-profit organization and actually acted like one, it could reduce overall costs — problem is, they are not.

I agree with you that our country has evolved into a nation of freedom for more individuals and I love those freedoms.

My main argument with you is that you seem to believe in the redistribution of wealth as led by the government. That is Socialism. It does not work as well in other countries as our freedom state has here. My point being: If you have so many complaints about the freedoms we enjoy, you always have the freedom to go somewhere else.

I find it funny you say I would fail a debate … truth is debates are won on facts and I don’t thing history bodes well for the US government and how they run things!

If you can say our country is exactly the same as it was 200, 50 or even 20 years ago, you are sorely mistaken. We have grown and developed over the years. We’ve had dozens of amendments to the Constitution for a reason- it was a document developed largely by old, white, wealthy men in the eighteenth century. Of course we’ve made changes. Of course adaptation has been necessary. Women can now vote. Slavery is outlawed. Discrimination based on race is illegal. Those are things that were not in the, “foundation of this country,” as you call it. Those are, in fact, “freedoms and liberties” that were granted and guaranteed, not taken away, through change and massive social movements.

With all due respect, you do not, “appreciate debate.” You would be laughed out of any face-to-face debate if your response to an opponent’s point was, “go somewhere else.” As American citizens, we have the right to criticize our government (One of those pesky amendments. The first, in fact). Exercising that right doesn’t make me unpatriotic, nor does it imply I should (or want to) leave my country. Marching out tired rhetoric is beneath those who want, as I said in an earlier post, civil, reasonable and logical debate.

I appreciate debate, but don’t apprecaite people trying to take away my freedoms and liberties because you want to change our country to a Socialist State — that’s why I tell you to go somewhere else. If you don’t like the foundation of this country, then you have the freedom to go somewhere else … that’s all.