Twitter are 100% the way to go

Hello Ted,
Well New Years Eve and all is well (?) I hope that you had a nice Christmas.
Many books can in fact be read at face value but some books need an enquiring even an open mind. Holy Scripture needs both these, plus a genuine desire to know the truth. When we are speaking of Gods revealed truth then sincere prayer is also a vital ingredient. See Moroni 10:4~5 in the Book of Mormon.
No one has the right to force any viewpoint onto another. Unfortunately there are those who are trying to coerce legislators into legalising ‘same sex’ relationships into law and onto an equal footing with the divinely instituted state of marriage, that, being the marriage between one man and one woman. The Church as a witness of and upholder of Gods law is resisting that motion and seeking for the status quo. That is not forcing our beliefs on anyone.
In your final comment, I actually agree with you. If the missionaries in question promise “I will get back to you” then they should get back to you. The failure to get back could have been due to having been moved to another area, but that said they should have acted on the promise. Sadly none of us is perfect. Present company excepted of course.

Good evening Chris,

In relation to your first paragraph, I read your books at face value. If it says the sky is Blue, I take it to mean the sky is Blue and not purple. By doing so you can rest assured I take the meaning as it is written.

In relation to your next statement, would you agree that I have no right to enforce my definition of marriage on you than you can enforce yours upon me? If so, then we are in agreement.

In response to your last paragraph, I agree, there is nothing wrong with “I will get back to you” provided they get back to you, which they do not.

Hi Ted,
My problem with your first statement is your claim to have reviewed LDS “books.” From your many statements and questions and failure to correctly read my replies I can see clearly that you have not prayerfully read with an open mind and an honest desire to know the actual truth.
Where marriage is concerned our beliefs go much deeper that either Civil marriage or indeed those conducted by other Churches. I have previously explained this to you. The Church is not trying to enforce our concept of marriage onto anyone; rather we are looking to keep the Status Quo in that marriage be only between a man and a woman. The USA legislators may well reject the Church supported motion, and that will be their right. (Other organizations also support that view). If you or indeed anyone else wants to live in a same gender relationship, then again that is your choice.
We are created in the image of God. Man has free agency and his thoughts and ways are quite often in accord with his thoughts and ways; However, many choose to live, think and act in ways that are contrary to His will, that is the exercise of free agency and is their right. A faithful Latter Day Saint will be striving to live in accordance with His Holy will. The Church strives to call these people to repent and come unto Christ, which indeed is our right.
I personally do not see that the Bible supports your stance in some respects it totally condemns your views.
I am flattered that you see my responses as “one step up from the missionaries,” However I must modesty refute this, the only difference is that being retired I have more time to reply. Whereas they have been called to serve, they are normally quite young and generally are preaching a simple message and testimony of the Gospel and the Lords restored Church. That is over simplified but makes the point. There is nothing wrong with the “I’ll get back to you response” an off the cuff reply may be misleading, even incorrect. Surely in a desire to know the truth it is better to wait for an accurate and correct reply.
I will be away from home over Christmas, so if you respond to this ‘tome’ I may not be able to reply straight away. Enjoy your Christmas however you celebrate it.

When keeping with your faith, i have no doubt all your responses are in truth and correctness. However when we review your books at face value against your statements, you do not display the same truth and correctness.

You acknowledge you do not have a copyright on marriage outside of your religion, yet the actions of your religion believe otherwise as they attempt to enforce their marriage code on non-believers.

So we are the image of god, do you mean only in body or do you also mean in action and in thoughts as well?

So you acknowledge the bible is the word of god with limited error. Fine enough, so my follow-up questions would be, what are the limited errors and who determined what these errors are?

If i am understanding you correctly, you say i am grasping at straws, however from side, i am looking for answers. The questions I ask are as written in the bible, yet you seem to discredit.

Dont get me wrong, I am greatly enjoying our conversations and value your insight, however, your responses are only one step-up from the missionaries who come to my door and have no responses other than "I'll get back to you".

Well what a good start; you conceded that I was right on something. Unfortunately, without wishing to sound arrogant I humbly submit that I am right on all matters that we have discussed.
No, I agree, in a worldly legal definition no one has a copyright on man made marriages be they civil or of any other non LDS faiths. However the LDS Church through Gods Prophet does have sole rights to marriage that is recognised by God, which are performed in His Holy Temples for Time & Eternity. Many man made marriage services actually state “until death us do part” or words to that effect. The Law of both of our countries recognise that a marriage is at an end when one of the parties dies. A faithful Latter Day Saint considers his or her marriage in full force even after the passing of a loved companion.
Man was indeed created in Gods image, and marriage became a basis, Gods way for the continuing male, female relationship, enabling them to carry out Gods command to multiply and replenish the Earth. Man was also given free agency to choose, they could follow Gods path leading to Eternal Life within the Celestial Kingdom or they could choose other paths of their own choosing; this would mean that they could not qualify for this exalted state. Without knowledge of the True Gospel some have chosen very good paths and will be rewarded accordingly. Others have chosen sinful paths, sometimes in error, often wilfully. Sadly Homosexuals, whether innocently through lack of knowledge or understanding, possibly even in wilful disobedience to Gods Law, fit somewhere in the latter groupings. They were born in Gods image but sadly they no longer reflect it. Certainly even if the law of our Countries finally concede to pressure, their ‘marriage’ will not be a lawful Eternal one in Gods eyes. He of course recognises that they would be lawful under civil law.
When we arrive at the Judgement Bar of God and have to answer for our actions in our mortal lives I personally would probably struggle even unable to justify some of the things I have done in my life. I doubt that you will be able to justify your position, it is untenable.
As for your “religious texts’ comment, I think you need to more carefully read my comments again, they are as follows:
“You appear to have misread what I wrote. I will simplify it for you. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Other Editions of the Bible, The Koran and the Tanakh etc. are all sources that can supply insight. The Bible has been translated by many people over the years and contains some errors and omissions. We can determine the truth by listening to Gods Prophet here on the Earth today”.
The beauty of our position is that we have moved on, but only in accordance with Gods Law. On that we stand firm. The Church is true and today we have a Prophet who leads it in the person of President Thomas S Monson. Please grasp this simple truth and investigate before it becomes eternally too late. At the moment you are only grasping at straws. You have had, not only my testimony but also of Shirlee and others that have responded. I again affirm to you that God lives, That Jesus Christ is our Lord & Saviour and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Lords true Church here upon the Earth today and Jesus Christ stands at its head, with Thomas S Monson as His Prophet who presides over the Church at this time. You are criticising without proper knowledge of what you are speaking about, your claims have no basis in fact. I lovingly invite you to properly investigate the Church, you will be amazed at how wrong you have been.

Good morning Chris,

You are correct, that should have read "Interpreted".

Trying to condense your reply into four points;

Mormons, let alone any other religion, do not have the copyright on marriage. That being said, you do not get to dictate to any legislative body of how "Your" god wants all non-believers to live.

Man was created in Gods image, which means everything we are or could ever be, is a part of god. Whether it is love or hate, heterosexual or homosexual, we are gods image. Hence god is full of as much heterosexual love as he is homosexual love.

Again, all religious texts have been translated by man which you agreed to and in conjunction full of error. To that, how did you select which ones are in error?

You argue that homosexuals should just move on? It is just as easy to argue that Mormons should just move on.

Hello Ted,
I am not sure whether your first line is facetious or a genuine mistake in that you have used the word “interrupted.” Many, possibly most Bible scholars accept that the Bible has got errors, misinterpretations and omissions. The great strength of the LDS position is that The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and stands together with the Bible as witnesses of the truth, whether you personally accept this is basically irrelevant – It is the truth. For this relationship see Ezekiel 37:19. Through revelation from God we know that this verse refers to these two books.
How you arrive at your statement regarding my understanding in paragraph 2 I fail to fathom. Down through the centuries Marriage has been recognised by all civilised people as being between a Man & a Woman, it is not just the LDS view; it is a view held by the vast majority of people throughout the World.
You say “this is your Gods definition” – in fact He is the God of us all including yourself. You should remember that! In Genesis 20:2 we, including you & I are commanded “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.” The plural “Gods” in this sense relates to man at that time worshipping Graven images etc. Today mans Gods are what ‘they make’ of them, Cars, Money, Property, Pop Stars etc. etc.
I “dress” nothing up, I am purely telling you the way it is in accordance with Gods Law, as contained in the scriptures and revealed through His servants the Prophets.
Within the Law we all have freedom to choose the way we live and our lifestyles. Personally I would add as long as our actions do not infringe upon the rights of others. The LDS Church is not denying your right to live what ever lifestyle you choose. In actual fact Homosexual people are trying to force society to accept their unnatural way of life as normal, as witness the violent confrontation over Proposition 8 in California.
In my previous notes I said “The Church SUPPORTED legislation that homosexuals should NOT be discriminated against when it comes to matters of employment and housing. So we do recognise Gay Rights but Gods Law that marriage should be between one man & one woman is Gods way, He did not create a third sex, hence we sustain Gods law and want to see it enshrined in the law of the land.
I have written before that God and His Church love the Homosexual as a Man but not his sexual practices. When He place Adam & Eve upon the Earth he commanded them to go forth and multiply, meaning to procreate, to have children. Homosexual relationships cannot be a marriage because this would be impossible for them to do.
I do not see why they have a problem and a need to be so in the face of modern society, they are now largely treated as more that equal, why not just get on and live their lives and let the rest of society also get on with their own?

Good evening Chris,

So you agree, the bible is the word of god as interrupted by man.

You then also understand why your religion suffers from so much anger as your religion encourages legislators to vote for your definition of marriage. To that end, you deserve all the hate you receive from which as you are enforcing your beliefs on everyone else.

As already stated, this is your gods definition of religion, I say again YOUR gods definition.

Doesn’t matter how you dress it up, you altered gods directive to fit mans law.

I thought it was pretty clear, your religions infringement of others rights.

Why would we need to move to the Book of Mormons when we already agree that Mormons do not recognize gay rights?

Hi Ted,
You appear to have misread what I wrote. I will simplify it for you. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Other Editions of the Bible, The Koran and the Tanakh etc. are all sources that can supply insight. The Bible has been translated by many people over the years and contains some errors and omissions. We can determine the truth by listening to Gods Prophet here on the Earth today.
I do know what the Church stance is in relation to Homosexuals; I did not know the specifics of your legislative program. I repeat it again to ensure you understand it: The Church encourages legislators to vote against homosexual marriage. Stating its policy that marriage should be between one man and one woman. Incidentally
The Church SUPPORTED legislation that homosexuals should NOT be discriminated against when it comes to matters of employment and housing.
As already stated God created Man and Woman and decreed marriage between them to be the right way. He did not create a third sex without the power of procreation.
Latter Day Saints, Christians, are required to be in the world, not of the world. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honouring, and sustaining the law. God gave man free agency, the ability to choose the right or the wrong path and will not interfere with our choices. Unfortunately some have chosen the latter, this often infringes upon personal liberty and leads to conflict of views. This put the Church in an untenable position, we ourselves could not impose our way of life on others, hence the petition to God for His guidance.
You have not really answered any of my questions, rather commenting upon my beliefs with different questions. Perhaps you might like to state the basis of your clear hostility to the LDS Church? Who or what is your God? How do Latter Day Saints intrude on your life or restrict your freedom to live in the way you opt for?
Up until now I have not quoted from The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. I would again urge you to properly investigate the Church, read the Book of Mormon in the light of Moroni 10:4 which reads: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”. That is how I came to know the Book of Mormon to be true. You too can know the peace and joy that reading it can bring to your life, be a doer rather than a complainer.

Good evening Chris,

To your first point, if all scriptures are the word of god and man decides what is relevant, there is no point to any of it as man is prone to error.

In the US, your church actively lobbies against homosexuals at the local and federal level. Not sure how you are not aware of that. That would equate to a Christian not knowing the actions of the pope.

If man is gods image, then god is part homosexual. If not, man is not gods image.

Local law supersedes gods law? If your god is all powerful and knowing why would he bow down to the laws of the united states?

There is no confusion. If you tell me the books are gods word yet make exceptions for every point, I am left with either, your god is flawed or the books are not gods word.

Overall, we are never going to agree. A god for me does not create cryptic directions nor make statements that have no historical nor scientific facts.

Dear Ted,
I cannot agree with your statement regarding religious text. All Latter Day Saints accept the LDS scriptures as the word of God and have a view that there is value in others, often the work of man rather than of God. I personally have several versions of the Bible snd have learnt much of value from them a variety of other books. We do not bend the true word of God and hopefully do not have a distorted or misinterpreted view of other writings. Certainly many scriptural teachings indicate a result or a consequence of obeying or rejecting Gods word.
I am an English citizen, so I cannot comment too authoritively on perceived representations made to Congress. I do know that the Church would not want to force anyone to live according to its teachings. We would encourage homosexuals to live that which we believe to be a more natural way of live. However, we would honour their right to live as they see fit, after all it is they who are trying to change the law and many are openly abusive and hostile to anyone who disagrees with them.
I did not say I misunderstand the law of nature. I was referring to the order of how things work in this world and the universe. Whereas you appear to be referring to a human behavioural law, whichever aspect you look at there is a rule of law. God created Man in his own image and it is man when exercising his free agency who makes the mistakes.
Plural marriage was decreed because of the circumstances of the time. Latter Day Saints believe in upholding the law of the land, when the law was changed by the Government of the USA the Prophet sought the Lords guidance and as a result of revelation Plural marriage was stopped. Breakaway groups, apostates and others not of the Church continued to practice it.
I stand by my last paragraph, God reveals His will, the Prophet proclaims it, Man then has a choice to do His will or not. If he chooses to be disobedient then he is wrong.
You sound a nice enough sort of guy but you have been misled or are confused on the subject of LDS teachings; again I would strongly urge you to properly investigate our Church and then if you cannot accept what is taught you will at least be speaking from a more informed point of view. Many have taken this path and put aside their misconceptions and joined the Church. Many others of course have rejected the truth and that is their God given right so to do.

Good afternoon Chris,

In relation to the first paragraph, fair enough and understood.

In relation to the second paragraph, we have a different understanding of religious texts. Every religious book is from God to man in a format that is to be understood by all. That being said, we have thousands of pages telling us, If you do X, Y will happen to you. Again, as these are in a simple format, they cannot be misunderstood by time nor definition. They are lessons for all of time. So what you are telling me is a bending of gods word to fit your needs.

You believe their lifestyle is not in accord with you Father in Heaven which is fine, as long as you keep it in your house. Its when your religion lobbies congress to force this upon everyone that creates discord to your faith.

Im not sure how you do not understand Natural Law? Natural Law is simple, there is no law. Even still, if you persist with this avenue, it is just as conceivable that this is gods method of evolution. If god made all of heaven and earth and he makes no mistakes, he knowingly created homosexuals.

If you believe homosexuals are sexual deviants and plural wives are not, nothing is going to change your mind. To your rebuttal however, if plural wives is a directive from god, why is it not in force today?

Lastly, your closing statement needs a correction. Revelation from God as explained thru man determines relevance. To this end, man is wrong.

Hi Ted,
My PC has had a fit of the ‘heebie jeebies) hence my delay in responding.
In the UK the word “We” used in your context normally indicates that you are speaking with authority on behalf of other people or you are the Queen of England, sometimes referred to as the ‘Royal We’. With regard to my use of the word “bitter” I used it because this is how your message read.
If you had taken up my invitation to properly investigate LDS teachings you would not have made some of the statements that you list. A careful study of the Scriptures clearly shows that some writings refer to past events and their context to the then present and to the future. Then some are purely specific to the time that they were written and others are prophecies regarding the future. In Amos 3:7 we read: “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” This is precisely why God called Joseph Smith to be a Prophet, God had work for His children (mankind) to do; He needed a Prophet upon the Earth so that He could reveal through revelation what He wanted us to do. Our future Eternal progress is determined upon how we respond to His will.
I am not trying to “Sell” anything to you. I am trying to show you that you are following false dogma and your need to turn onto the true path. I have no bad feelings towards Homosexuals; it is just that I absolutely know that their lifestyle is not in accord with our Father in Heavens will.
As for Marriage, my concept of human history is that God created the Heavens and the Earth, He placed Adam & Eve upon the Earth and they were married to each other Eve was Adams wife (See Genesis chapter 2). Again a careful study of the scriptures will show you that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ of the New Testament are one and the same (for example see John 1:1-3 all Christian ministers will tell you Christ is the Word of God). That is true history. Failure to understand this fact means that many people fall into the same error as you have done.
I cannot believe your comment regarding Natural Law, what you are describing is the ‘law of self’. The Law of Nature refers to the workings of planet Earth; The times, the seasons, also the planting and growing from seed to plant etc. It also includes the natural way to create a child. In this regard so called ‘Gay’ sexual practices are deviant and not natural.
As previously stated, Joseph Smiths marriages were as a result of a commandment by way of revelation to him from God; they were not a lustful action in any way. I accept that people in this day & age would not accept it, but it was a specific revelation in the light of circumstances at that time. I believe that a large majority of people do still believe that the Gay person’s sexual act is a perversion. That it is normal is a minority opinion. Of course minorities are not always wrong, but in this case they most definitely are!
Finally, revelation from God determines relevance. How does the LDS Church today infringe upon others? I agree “action is needed” you need to properly investigate the Church and learn the truth, it might surprise you!

Good afternoon Chris,

"We" refers to others who question the statements/actions of your church. As far as bitter, I am not, however I find it amusing you take questions and challenges as such.

Finally some specific passages, and to which, you nailed them on the head. However, it then means you follow the word of god to the letter. Based on the old testament, your would fate is that of homosexuals

Again, this is your faith, no need to sell me on it.

Again, history shows marriage predates Christianity and Mormons. So you can follow your belief as facts and we will follow history for our facts.

Find me any animal that does anything it does not desire to. Heres a hint, you wont. If an animal wants to eats, he eats. If he wants to sleep, he sleeps. Natural Law is to do as one wants.

No, my response was spot on. Joseph Smith had 24/30 wives. If you ask any one today who they belived to be a sexual deviant, a homosexual or a man with 24/30 wives, there going to find against the man with 24/30 wives.

Ah, so words of yesterday cannot be applied to today. I wonder how did you determine which ones are not irrelevant anymore?

My interests are based on your religions actions against others. What you do in your own house is yours which I respect, however when your beliefs infringe upon others, action is needed.

Ted,

Clearly your answers choose to ignore or twist the meaning of what does not suit you in my comments. I am curious as to who are the "we" in line 4 of your diatribe. Is there really more than one who appears as bitter as yourself?

Reference Homosexuality as LDS citations are "not relevant" try reading: Romans 1:24-32; 1Corinthians 6:9-11; ! Timothy 1:8-10; Jude 1:7; Genesis1:27, 13:13, 18:20-22; Leviticus 18:22-29, 20:13 and Deuteronomy 23:17. I have already previously explained about mankinds final "resting place." Also as I told you Hellfire & Sulphur teaching belongs to other Christian faiths.

You may not be concerned as to whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, but I testify to you in all solemnity that he was and that God called him to be so.

Likewise I testify to you that Marriage between one man and one woman was ordained of God, no amount of saying otherwise can change that, it is an Eternal and Everlasting fact and Law. No one dictates or forces anyone into marriage, it is a relationship of love and is freely entered into by those who love and care about each other; others can choose to live as they please that is their right. However if they wilfully ignore Gods law they will one day have to answer for it on the day of judgement.

I cannot believe you actually believe your Law of Nature comment. I doubt that there is an intelligent person in the world who believes that, whether Christian, Scientist, Politician or even Atheist.

You appear to have deliberately misread my comment on Plural Marriage. It was Plural Marriage that was ordained of God and was received by revelation to Joseph who obeyed Gods Law. 24 or 32 wives
is irrelevant it was Gods revealed law.

The killing of non believers in scriptural times has to be read in the context of the times. With a Prophet at the head of the Lords Church we believe in continuing revelation. What was relevant in those days is not so today. It is facetious to suggest that it could be applied in this day and age. Mind you I have read of extreme right and indeed left wingers who would be happy to adopt it, also there is still at least one faith that have sections of their community that practice it.

Finally I note that you continue to ignore my interest in where you are coming from, it might be quite revealing. As for length of message, this is in the interest of honest debate, also I ask, because I am concerned for your eternal welfare.

Good afternoon Chris,

I see your responses are becoming longer and longer, so to help keep this in a simple text;

Mormons have not sampled the "World at large" on any topic.
No matter how many times you bring up evil acts committed against Mormons, evil does not negate evil. The more you bring it up, the more we believe you are trying to justify it.

Your LDS citations were not relevant as it did not mention homosexuals and there resting place. Cite passage and we will move further.

Im not concerned if Joseph Smith was or was not a prophet. Ive read his bio which presents a less than moral character, at least for me
The Christian/Mormon god did not create the institution of marriage. That being said, you do not have the right to dictate what it is and force it upon everyone.

The "Law of nature" is do what one wants. So yes, it follows the law of nature

So plural marriage is a good thing as God ordained it to Joseph Smith?

The scriptures also cleary teach that non believers should be killed. Does that mean Congress should adopt a policy to kill all non Christians as well as banning gay marriage?

We disagree on the amount, but even at 24, that doesn't sound like a sexual deviant to you?

Ted,

I do find it rather strange that you cannot accept what the World at large accepts as an apology. I do agree with you two wrongs do not make a right. However if you are fair and open minded you should also be concerned at what happened to the early Latter Day Saints. As a direct result of unfounded persecution many more people died than were killed in the Mountain Meadows massacre. Further people suffered extreme abuse including, Rape, tar & feathering and being driven out of their homes etc.

Assuming you would not accept LDS citations I quoted from the Bible; these scriptures clearly show that there is a place for all of us based upon our faithfulness and behaviour in this life. Also whilst Websters is a useful resource on many subjects it would never claim to be a definitive authority on God given matters.

Virtually all of the objections made against the Church by nonmembers and ex members alike, are made on the basis that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God. Whatever they object to turns on whether Joseph Smith and his successors were and are prophets of God receiving divine revelation. Prior to 1962 I would not have believed that, I had personal revelation in answer to my prayers and after thorough investigation I came to know that the Church was true, that Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet of God.

I personally can accept that two men or indeed two women can live together in a friendship relationship, but cannot accept their claim to be treated as equal to a man & his wife in a God ordained or indeed a civil marital relationship. When it comes to their sexual practices then clearly they are going against the law of nature and because they are trying to replicate an act of procreation then they are effectively declaring that their relationship is not normal.

With regards to Plural Marriage this was ordained of God by revelation to Joseph Smith, This of course hinges upon whether you believe he was a Prophet. Whereas the scriptures clearly teach that homosexuality is a sin. Incidentally on the Family Search website 24 wives are listed.

I would still be interested in knowing why you feel a need to attack the LDS Church in this way? Have you had a bad experience with religion? Are you a disaffected Latter Day Saint?

Afternoon Chris,

We did find one point we agree to, we will never agree....

In relation to a formal apology, they have none. For your response of persecution, one evil act does not negate another evil act.

In relation to gays and citing the bible, no. If it is written in English, most people in the US do not need it interpreted by another. If I have do not have a definition for a word, ill rely on Webster.

For the last paragraph, well, its not going to matter what I say as it is solely based on your belief. However, to your comment of "Sexual Sin", if you believe gays suffer this sin, how does Joseph Smith also not follow suit with 30 simultaneously wives?

I appreciate all that Chris has said, it is what we believe. We have a Heavenly Father who loves us and will do all He can to make sure we all come home. But we are in the drivers seat and through Godgiven agency we choose how we will live and whom we will follow. There has to be opposition in all things so that we have the ability to choose and all good comes from God and all that is bad in the world comes from the inticings of Satan to get us to go against the Father's plan of happiness for us. We are here to be tested to see what we will choose to do. He even wept in the scriptures as he and Enoch spoke and Enoch asked Him why he wept being that He was perfect and all knowing and He told Enoch "because these are my workmanship, I created them and in the Garden of Eden I gave them their agency. Here He knew He would lose part of his beloved children because the principle of agency is so important, that He doesn't force us to do good or even bad, we make that choice. He has some truths that are of eternal consequences though that have always been and will always be. Preciousness of live, so no murders, abortions. Marriage between men and women, he created them as such for a purpose, to procreate and fill the earth. That includes sexual purity before marriage. Kindness and compassion, caring for the poor and needy instead of hate and anger and unkindness and not caring for those in need. We chose and our choices will put us in the kingdom we have lived in the way to earn. Like Chris, I want to live in such a way that I can along with my family can return to the Celestial kingdom where I can be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The greatest hell we will experience will be in our mind and heart because of the possiblities we have of making it and choose not to. Christ taught the way and was the true example. His atonement is always there for us to use to help us repent and be forgiven of all we do wrong on a daily basic if we are sincere and truly striving. If there are those in our church who hate, it is a personal matter of their own. We are not taught to or encouraged to hate anyone, our prophet is always teaching us to be more kind, more loving, more forgiving, to love the sinner, but not the sin, weather we are in or out of the church, we are all brothers and sisters and each is totally responsible for his own actions and intent of our hearts and will stand before our Heavenly Father and account for our choices while here on Earth. I know one thing for sure. He will look up the good that we have done on this Earth over the mistakes. His judgements will be just and also mercy will be given, but in the end we will be where we have chosen to be why the lives we have chosen to live. What commandments and teachings we put into our lives and what amount of knowledge we understood of His plan that we will be held accountable for, are some of the things we will be judged in that day.

Hello Ted,

Well, we look as though we might be the last ones on this blog. I suspect that you and I will never actually agree, but then if everyone agreed at all times I feel something will have been lost in this life of ours.

You may well be right, in that this was the first formal apology but the Church stance has been a matter of record for a very long time. Whilst you may not accept that this was an apology it has largely been accepted as such by the descendants of those who were killed. As a point of interest have you ever studied the persecution, violent abuse, rape(s) and murder(s) committed against the early Latter Day Saints? This of course does not in anyway condone or justify this horrific massacre, but it does paint on a broader canvass the background that affected the mindset of the people who committed such an atrocious act.

As to the question of Gay’s and their destination in the hereafter, being able to cite texts etc. leads to the question of understanding and interpretation. Your definition of Hell is rather different to the one I believe in. What is important is how we live our lives, centred in Christ or Centred in some other lifestyle. The Lord and His Church love the sinner but there is no place for the sin in the hereafter. The unrepentant sinner
Cannot achieve the highest level of reward, the New Testament teaches of varying levels of glory for us when we leave this mortal life. Following Judgement, our destination will be to a Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial (“Moon”) glory See 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. We also know that there will be many mansions John 14:2. These scriptures clearly indicate levels of reward.

As a Latter day Saint I hope to achieve Celestial Glory, if as a result of my life’s actions I fall short I might well only achieve the Telestial Glory, that for me will be Hell; the anguish at knowing I had had the opportunity of doing better and Had blown it. This is effectively damnation, my eternal progress will have been blocked as a result of sin. This I would suggest is the fate for all that are guilty of sexual sin and are unrepentant feeling no remorse for their acts. The Lords way is Marriage between a Man and a Woman; no other way is acceptable to Him. The Church supports this stance and lovingly calls people to repentance. I would still encourage you to be open minded and properly investigate the true teachings of the Church. I believe the Hellfire & Sulphur teaching belongs to other Christian faiths.

Good afternoon Chris,

To your first point, nope. This statement (Which was the only attempt), is not to admit ownership nor to apologize for the event, but only acknowledges the incident.

To the last point, im not sure your on the same page with your doctrine. It is your contention as a Mormon, gay people are sinners and will go to hell (Hence the Sulfur). I can provide you with all the suporting text and actions from your church if you like.

Ted,

Over the years the Church has regularly condemned what happened in this massacre. They also own and maintain the monument that was erected in memory of those who died. Further on Wednesday September the 12th 2007 a formal apology was made, in the interest of brevity I copy part as follows:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a long-awaited apology Tuesday for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in southwestern Utah.

Elder Henry B. Eyring of the Quorum of the Twelve read the church's statement on assignment from the church's governing First Presidency during a memorial ceremony at the gravesite of some of the massacre victims at Mountain Meadows, about 35 miles northwest of St. George.

The statement also places blame for the Sept. 11, 1857, massacre on the local church leaders at the time and church members who followed their orders to murder some 120 unarmed men, women and children.

"We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time," Elder Eyring said".

As for Gay people, none of us can absolutely know what our final resting place will be like. I would say it is more likely to be smelling of roses and certainly not Sulpher. In my personal opinion 'Hell' will be more in our state of mind knowing what we could have achieved if we had but lived a better life, be we Latter Day Saints,Gays or whatever.

None of us are perfect, neither you or I. The Lord recognised this and His plan for us included the principle of repentance. Which effectively means total remorse for and a complete turning away from our sinful past to embrace the life that he would have us live.
If you study your Bible you will see this for yourself. Hopefully you will also accept my invitation to properly investigate the Church with an open mind and a desire to know the truth.

Did I mention brevity somewhere? Oh well, we can't always be perfect! I will be away for a couple of days,I expect you will want to reply?

I just love the ideology that a man can be a serial murder, find faith within the confines of prison and those that practice the religion believe this man has absolved his sins (crimes) and will find a resting spot in heaven (such as Jeffrey Dahmer).

However, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Dave Matthews, Brad Pitt, Neil Peart, Albert Einstein, Richard Branson, Ricky Gervais, Lance Armstrong, Dana White, Woody Allen, Penn & Teller and Eddie Vedder are all coming to hell with me.

I'll stay here with David Cross and Lewis Black.

Chris,

I didn't see a "Yes, the Meadows Massacre was our doing and we take responsibility", rather, "it should not of happened". Awesome.

"The Church does not advocate Gay people should burn", really? According to you, does their final resting place smell of roses or sulfur?

Ted,

Really, your answer was a bit weak. Do you have a historic connection with the 'Mountain Meadows' massacre, maybe family? This should not have happened, the members involved were wrong and the Church leaders were quite distressed over this terrible incident. The only mitigation was possibly that they had endured wicked persecution from people who should have known better. Unfortunately there are very few organizations whether religious or polical etc who sadly do not have something in there past that is best forgotten. What is important is what we do with our time and opportunities in the here and now.

The Church does not advocate Gay people should burn. We believe in their right to choose their own lifestyle and whilst we consider their way of life and sexual practices wrong, we would uphold their right to live in this way. We have love for all mankind but not necessarily for the things that they do. Incidentally I have Gay friend (not just tokenism)one of them a friend for 40 years. we accept and respect each other viewpoint without rancour

We believe that marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God and that marriage is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

Please speak from a position of strength, investigate and learn the truth, even if you do not embrace the LDS faith you will at least have a better understanding.

As members of the church we are taught the three most important things we do in this life is care for the poor and feed the hungry and cloth the naked. No requirement given. We do it freely as does the church whenever and whenever it can. The church requires nothing of countrys or states when help is given, it is totally given as a service to those in need. We as wards continually put our resources together and help
those in need and never think a thing other than it felt wonderful to help those who at the time cannot help themselves. Most of the time we don't even know who we are giving too other than the ladies who are in charge and get to deliver it to the ones in need. We have canneries where we all go and give of our time to can and bottle for those in need. The church furnishes all the foods and meat we work with and there never is a charge for those who need. How can you be a know it all about matters you know nothing about?

I am not a Mormon, but am sympathetic to them, because having attended a chapel for 4 months I know they are good people. I write from London, England, and I don't think those in America who criticise the LDS Church realise how lucky they are to live in a country that still has thriving Christian churches. Here in England there is a direct inverse relationship between the decline in belief and a rise in family disintegration, with all the misery that is associated. Furthermore, it is obvious that believers in God are much less prone to violence than the God-less. The most evil people of the twentieth century were Stalin and Hitler, both atheists and responsible for the death of 13 million and 6.5 million respectively. These Mormom missionaries are doing a great job in helping the USA avoid slipping the way of Europe.

To the statement by Chris Price of "I would ask why do you and others who blindly criticise our faith feel that there is a need to do so.", heres your response;

From the past, your church has to to apologize for the Meadow Mountain slaughter, for the current, you want all gay people to burn.

Censorship Central,

Sorry in the interest of brevity, I did not explain the obvious. As a result of my prayers, I received a revelatory answer inasmuch that I had a warm burning feeling come over me and the word 'Mormon' was placed into my mind by the Spirit. Albeit I had revived an early childhood Catholic interest in God and had found too much confusion as to which or what was truth, I had little understanding of Spiritual revelation. Because the word had been placed in my mind I then knew to ask the right question.
Also I am not an "Mormon Internet Watchdog" (whatever that is). I picked up on this story by following a news link on an LDS site.

I would ask why do you and others who blindly criticise our faith feel that there is a need to do so. Yes we do follow Christs admonition to be His witness and to spread the Gospel. We do this by invitation and not coercion.

Latter Day Saints are not perfect and while some fall short, most are striving to live a good life, we denigrate no man or religion and certainly do not countenance force or derision.

Dr. Adam. When some men are learned they think they are wise. How sad. You know nothing of what you claim. Nothing. No more need said.

Educated, you say? I have two words for you:

Temple. Garment.

Shirlee - It may walk like a duck, it may sound like a duck - but it slithers like a snake. These missions are disguised under the humanitarian umbrella but we all know they are simply conversion methods. This is no different than the Christians who "give aid" in Africa and then push their policies on birth control fueling the spread of the HIV virus throughout the country simply because they do not want the individuals to practice safety. The church is to humanitarian efforts as PETA is to animal rights - homeland terrorism that often has the opposite effect (but of course the idiocy of PETA is for a different time).

Loretta - as I said, I was raised Roman Catholic. I went through the 3 major childhood steps, and yet it was at the end of the process that everything finally made sense - the church is a business, one that tries to provide comfort and safety to those who are weak at a cost. The church my family belonged to, for example, would routinely solicit donations far and above what is necessary for any kind of charitable organization. Looking further into the background of the religion as a whole, there are far too many errors and terrible ideologies for me to even want to believe.

Do you really want to believe in a god that killed all the first born Egyptian children? One that drowned the world? How about the Midianite massacre? The Crusades? The King of Bashan's people? One that states that if you work on a Sunday you must be killed? One that forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other? I could continue, and by your own book's account, your god has killed millions of people.

As a caveat, what are your thoughts on fossils? Are they merely a few thousand years old?

Adam - I find it interesting that you feel that religion--specifically the LDS church--and education do not mix. One of the main doctrines of the LDS church is that members should "Obtain as much education as possible." This means secular as well as spiritual. Logic tells me that a church that is intentionally misleading its members would not be encouraging its members to get "as much education as possible", for fear of its members becoming wise to the scheme. The LDS church is full of well educated and influential people. The leadership of the church is no exception. It includes a former surgeon, a Utah supreme court justice, a nuclear engineer, several well-known businessmen, three university presidents, a lawyer, and a pilot. These men have dedicated a great part of their lives to serving in the LDS church, and receive no compensation for their service.
I truly believe that men and women of education, those who are open enough to accept there is a God, will have the truthfulness of the restored gospel made known to them--not only in their hearts, but also in their minds. This can be achieved only through SINCERE study and contemplation. God and His church are not threatened by education.

There really is a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Although it is hard to believe, He lives. If you would like to know for yourself, just reach out for His Noodly Appendage and you will receive your answer. Flying Spaghetti Monster is the light of our universe.

The article was wrong on the ages. Ashley is 21. Girls going on missions go at 21. The boys go at age 19. One of the girls in the picture is 18 and a student there and the missionary is 21.

Adam, There really is a god. Jesus is real. Although it is hard to believe, they both live. If you would like to know for yourself, ask the father in the name of the son and you will recieve your answer.

Well Robert you had better read the BofM a 13'th time and review Alma chpt 30. It will help you to understand real deception

Robert,
Your argument about the text of the Bible used in the Book of Mormon misses the point. I am surprised you did not gripe about it having "adiue" as well.
God speaks to us in our own language. At the time of Joseph Smith the King James Bible was the accepted English version, at least in frontier America. God let its language stand when it conveyed the message accurately enough.
Anyway, we do not have any manuscripts of the Bible that date back even to 600 BC, let alone the original manuscripts of Isaiah (which is the source of most of the Bible quotes in the Book of Mormon) so your argument about the matter is pretty weak.

The 18-year-old mentioned in the article is not a missionary, but she might help the missionaries out at times. She is a student at Central Michigan University. Yes, there are lots of Mormons who live here in Michigan for reasons other than serving missions. I am one of them, I was born and raised here, and other than when I served a mission in Las Vegas and when I was a student at Brigham Young University have essentially lived my entire life in Michigan.
It is a standard piece of knowledge that there are 11 other people who saw the Gold Plates and bore record of it besides Joseph Smith.
The fact that one person says the number is 15 only shows that that person is confused, not that the Church tells multiple stories.
If the person who commented above really believes that more knowledge about Mormonism is a good thing they will advocate for Central Michigan University to purchase copies of The Joseph Smith Papers. The fact that no library in MEL and no Michigan library listed in WorldCat has a copy of either of the volumes of this important work of historical scholarship is a truly sad condition.
If people want openness they will advocate for this book to be purchased, or better yet donate it to the University.
Anyone who fails to do this and goes on a tirade about openness by the LDS Church is a hypocrite. They have began publishing the papers of Joseph Smith, in the case of the Revelations and Translations edition with facimilies and facsimilie typescrips with colors indicating who all the people who wrote various marks on each page were. It is selling for under $100, or put another way for less than many textbooks. Considering it is about 9" by 11" and almost 750 pages, this is really quite cheap.

I am Ashleys Mother. I am grateful she is serving a mission to teach the gospel. Some of the remarks made here are so false. Such as the church building malls in Salt Lake. They have not used one cent of tithing for it. All has come from private investors. And all done to renew the city as is done in every state in the nation. So they are doing service to community. Missionary's pay the same amount where ever they are called to help those in the very poor countries be able to serve. We are paying for two missionaries right now and part of that money goes for those who are not able to pay for a mission and I am more than happy to do that. Years ago they paid according to where they served so some were paying a great deal and others were hardly required to pay anything depending where they were called. So this equalized it for all members to be able to be more equal and then help those who have no income from family to pay for mission. Tithing pays for temples churches BYU and part of the tuiton costs of the students. We have one of the largest humanitarian department in the world. Every incident that happens in the world the church is there with supplies and food for every one, no matter their religion. Do some research. The leadership has always lived humbly and do not get paid at any level of service in the church. Every position in the church is done by the members of the church and none gets paid for their many hours of service. Travel through out the world and living expenses during service out of country allows them some compensation but not near enough for everything. Many of them have served for many many years and do so freely, because of love of gospel. The gospel taught by the church of Jesus Christ or Mormon is the same gospel taught by Jesus Christ as he was on the earth. There will always be apostates, those who don't even know what they are talking about and those who think they are so wonderful themselves that they don't need a Savior but it only strengthens my testimony of the truthfulness of it. I have also found that by their fruits ye shall know them. As I see how wonderful and happy my life has been and the great children that have gone through our home, I know that it is true and living its principles have brought the desired results for peace and happiness.

Adam,
Your first rebuttal is amusing. The very process of getting a PhD (in an engineering science, no less) has strengthened my testimony more than any other event in my life, to this point. I know there will be more such events in the future.

As a side note, I respect your position in life. But I regard your venom against this Church, and organized religion as a whole for that matter, as the very same source which creates the huge quantities of discomfort, distrust, and angst in this world.

lulz, it's called being 13 years old. My family is/was Roman Catholic, so hence me being raised in it. I would say roughly a year before my confirmation is when I really started to have doubts in regards to the legitimacy of a God and its teachings.

Those that are saying that one must "pray to find the answer" have little faith in the power of one's own mind. It's the feeling someone gets when they buy a lottery ticket and believe it's a winner, or the manipulation of a Ouija board to garner the answer one wants. Most likely, it is this same inner voice that Joseph Smith had and made him believe he was a prophet - or he was conscientious of what he was doing and merely manipulated others around him for his own advantage - I could very well see each situation playing out.

How am I pushing my belief onto others if I have never even said what I am? All you know is that I was at one point a Roman Catholic, but have sense gone on and received a college education and no longer share those beliefs. I could be an atheist, agnostic, Wiccan, Buddhist, Satanist, etc. My goal is not to make others into my own image of what a person should be.

I believe in a non-literal form of karma - that we should simply be good people. It doesn't matter what religion I am or what you are, as long as you are a good person. It is my belief that in being a Mormon and trying to convert others to that belief system is not being a good person, it is damaging that individual and in a broad sense, the country.

As an LDS student myself, and one who is preparing to serve a mission, I am proud and excited to see a story about other LDS Sister Missionaries serving the Lord. It is remarkable to me the debate that goes on between critics of the Church and proponents of the Church. I know this is like standing in front of a freight train, but this debate is really unnecessary. Each person must decide for themselves what they believe to be true, and then try their very hardest to be the best they can be in what they believe. If my beliefs don't detract from how you live your life, leave me alone, and I will offer you that same respect.

Where is the love from some of you people???? Santa is watching who is notty or nice!

Ummmm so you have an ex roman catholic and mormons fighting over of is this God legitimate.

When really both sides are.....I don't know.....what's word for someone who believes in something that is invisible, living in the sky, that they claim they talk to and claims that talks to them. Oh yeah lunacy!

Oh Adam, don't try to be holier than thou on these guys. You too believed in stories about a God that could never be true.
And from the track record that the Catholics have, even if you are an ex one...but you did follow at one point, you have no room to point a finger at anyone.

I read the Book of Mormon over twelve times before I realized it was not true. There are over 3,000 changes from the 1st edition. It quotes the King James Version instead of the original Hebrew which I know how to read. It has the Gospel in the Old Testament times.
I prayed about the BOM and know it is NOT true.

Ashley is my sister and I am so proud of her. Anyone in Michigan that meets her will feel so loved by her. I feel sorry for people that live life without hope and purpose. You dont need to rain on everyone else's parade. Why so hateful and negative? People that think religion is poison are weird. We still love you though! I know who I am do you know who you are? Anything you say that is negative and FALSE will bounce off me and go back to you in the way of a hug!

These people are Mormon internet watchdogs. They post links, such as this one, and then invite the sheep to spread their false doctrine whenever a rightful individuals stands-up and speaks out against them. They are not affiliated with the university in any way, shape or form. They blindly follow an empty doctrine, I feel pity for them.

Chris Price, if you have never heard of Mormonism, how did you know to ask these individuals if they were, in fact, Mormons? Your logic and story has about as much substance as your holy book - NONE.

Many years ago I took the challenge to read the Book of Mormon and sincerely prayed to God, asking Him if it was true. I promise you, if you are sincere and really want to know, Heavenly Father will answer your prayer through the Holy Ghost, also known as the Holy Spirit, a still small voice deep within you and your bosom will burn with a knowledge of the truthfulness of this great book that Heavenly Father has revealed to the world, along with the Holy Bible. Find out for yourself. Read the Book of Mormon and pray. But the old saying, "A man convinced against his will, remains of the same opinion still," is a factor that everyone must overcome and realize that there is a God and He has a plan for each of His sons and daughters. You can open your mind, your heart and your soul to Heavenly Father. He can testify to your very being with the truth. Just find out for yourself and take the time to read, ponder, and humbly ask Heavenly Father if it is true. That is the key that will open your mind, heart and soul and you will kick off the worldly prejudices that are out there tripping individuals up and closing their minds to a great truth.

In 1963, the State of Ohio certified the Hopewell Civilization as being a location of a nation of people who dwelled in the area between 200 BC and 500 AD (Smithsonian, ancient America history). That is exactly the dateline of the coming together of the Book of Mormon Nephites (Tribe of Joseph) and the Mulekites (Tribe of Judah – Prophet Jeremiah’s daughter “Zara” fled from Jerusalem to this land around 560 BC).

The Mormon missionaries don’t even know thier own history, certified by many Mid-western states. The Mormons stopped using the original translation of the Book of Mormon in 1837 as it was altered with the second printing, so their current Book of Mormon is significanly altered, creating “many gods”. The original Book of Mormon is a pure history of the ancient Americans and is a second witness that Jesus IS God, the Eternal Father as there is only one God (John 4, Alma 11:23-40, Ether 3:14, Mosiah 15:1-5). The LDS church is very corrupt at this time believing in polygamy and masonry as warned against in the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-24, secret combinations and blood oaths; Moses 5:29).

This is the problem with Mitt Romney and Harry Reid; they, and these missionaries are ignorant. The original translation of the Bible was correct. The original translation of the Book of Mormon is equally correct but not used by the LDS Missionaries. Ask them about the Hopewell Culture and they will give you a big stare! Try it out. (from a former BYU Bishop who found the truth through a profound NDE!)

Pres. Hinckley was ask, (and I paraphase) if the modern technology of television ads. and the power of the internet will make it unnecessary to send "Missionaries" to teach the Gospel. His response was his familiar chuckle, followed by the statement that the truthfulness of the Gospel is between one man/woman and his/her God. The missionaries just deliver the message.
Personally, I feel comfotable being around Mormon and non-Mormon. I made my choice one on one with the Lord. Those I associate with may do the same or remain quiet. I believe there were a few men a couple of centuries ago that said that is the way is must be. So be it.
Signed,
AGROUCHYOLDMORMONMANANDPROUDOFIT

Adam,
I would suggest you read Acts 5: particularly verses 33-39. This is the response of Gamaliel, a doctor of law who was well respected, to those who would seek to put to death Peter and his companions for their testimonies. v.38: "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought." v.39: "But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

I am grateful that someone listed the path for spiritual conversion in response to a critic of the Mormon Church. While this article was very commendable in highlighting the missionary experiences of these young women, it completely missed the Christ-centered message they were sharing (notice how the picture-taking focused on the missionaries more than the message of Jesus Christ); and that anyone can sincerely know that it is true by the witness and power of the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead. Pretty tame journalism. I am glad that Adam at least was willing to go head on, although I question his tactics as typical intellectual baiting and fodder that would not even hold up in the generally-agnostic scientific community, whose aim it also is is to seek after and find the truth of physical things. At least quote people correctly like any decent and credible journalist would, even if you do not agree with their philosophy.

No one can deny when they are being taught by the Holy Ghost as opposed to a missionary - whose main job it is is to invite the Holy Ghost to enter the conversation and do the actual real teaching. An investigator or someone who has "rubbed shoulders" with the Holy Ghost can verbally lie and say they are not being taught divine truths through the Holy Ghost, but no one can deny when they are taught with spiritual power when this being is present, whose mission it is is to testify of Christ, Heavenly Father, and the truth of their plan of salvation. It is like saying that the there is no such thing as electricity even as the person stating this is feeling an electric shock, because the person being shocked does not believe in things that he cannot physically see; and, of course, because he is lying, it is easy for him to convince others that in fact he is not feeling the effects of invisible electrical current shocking him.

To sum up the follow-X-to-yield-Y-results argument as being invalid: this is pretty much the basis for scientific inquiry that has led to many helpful inventions and discoveries that have blessed all of mankind. Surely a person ignorant of the things of God would want a simple cause-effect action plan for discovering the mysteries of godliness as well. Imagine being told to just do this, and you will get a certain result? Why are there not more scientists who believe in Jesus Christ and his gospel when he clearly stated the scientific theory of discovery long before they came out with their own rewritten version?

I'm not sure whats worse, Mormons or Scientologists? They are both awful and put their faith whatever they are told to.

Religion is Poison.

Adam,

Everyone in intitled to their own opinion but you stated the LDS Church forces their beliefs on people more then any other religion and yet you are trying to force your belief's on the readers of this article. So what you are saying and what you are doing is sort of hypocritical. Why do you feel that you are free to "force" your opinion on people, but when a religous institution does it is not acceptable?

I agree with Adam. I was born and raised LDS. I DID go on to get a PhD, and in the process learned to think and reason and cease being so gullible. One of the most absurd things about the Church doctrine is this "Plan of Salvation" these women are selling! It is so ridiculous. It makes a so-called "loving Heavenly Father" into a manipulative, abusive, irrational, immoral monster who doesn't mean what he says, and who tricks his "children" into sinning so they can appreciate repentance and reliance on him! The LDS God matches the profile of sociopathic abusers!

Adam and I are not "threatened" by people saying good things about the Church. We are rightly offended by anyone who would publicize lies and false claims in order to recruit more tithe-payers for what ultimately amounts to a huge MLM scam! Individuals and groups that prey upon the gullible and desperate need to be called out and challenged in public forums! Kudos to Adam for doing so.

In 1963 the State of Ohio certified the Hopewell Civilization as being a location of a nation of people who dwelled in the area between 200 BC and 500 AD. That is exactly the dateline of the coming together of the Book of Mormon Nephites (Tribe of Joseph) and the Mulekites (Tribe of Judah - Prophet Jeremiah's daughter "Zara" bringing the Solomon Temple treasures to this land around 560 BC) The Mormon missionaries don't even know thier own history, certified by many Mid-western states. The Mormons stop using the Original translation in 1837, so their current Book of Mormon is altered, creating "many gods". This is the problem with Mitt Romney and Harry Reid = they, and these missionaries are ignorant. The original translation of the Bible is correct. The original translation of the Book of Mormon is equally correct but not used by the LDS Missionaries. Ask them about the Hopewell Culture and they will give you a big stare! Try it out. (from a former BYU Bishop)

Adam,

I have heard arguments for and against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as well as arguments for and against the Book of Mormon.
I have read the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible (old and New and the Old Testament).
The Book of Mormon actually speaks of accounts in the Bible, such as when Moses led the children of Isreal out of Egypt and some of the struggles they experienced. There is much more.
I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God because I have read it and prayed about it. I know it is true. I encourage you to read it and pray about it, if you do now wish to, very well. Please do not assign your assumptions and 'opinions' to those of us who know, from our own experience, that it is true.

Mark,

I was very interested in your quotes and looked each of them up to see what context they were in. I am quite surprised that your post was trying to portray the quotes in a negative light.

Have you read these quotes in the context of the talks in which they were given? It feels as though we were reading something different. What was I missing? It made positive sense to me. I would appreciate your insight.

Thanks.

Adam, I hope it warms your soul this holiday season to know that many of us (Mormons) are praying for your soul. Feel free you follow your own conscience knowing that you will always receive a warm hand of fellowship if you ever decide to open your heart and mind to God.

Boy, some people sure get upset over a couple of young people telling others what they believe. By the way, the article states that one of the missionaries is 18. I think that is an error since later in the article it says that they must be 21.

Adam, first in November 1963 I found my faith by going on my knees to seek the truth. Prior to this I had never heard of the Church or Mormonism. Yet after much fervent prayer I felt impressed that the answer to my prayer was to seek out a Church connected to the word Mormon. To cut this short I found an old Church building, the full name of the Church was on the notice board, I went in, two young men were coming out, I said are you Mormons they said yes,I invited them to teach me about their faith. Through all of this I felt the Spirit and was baptised and have not looked back. I was giving an opinion based on knowledge, I actually read the Book of Mormon! I was not seeking argument. My parents were not particularly religious and when I am wrong (my wife will tell you that happens most days) I freely admit it. I live a peaceful and contented life
and in a final answer to you I would suggest you really need the Gospel, it would so enrich your life.

I have served a two year Mormon mission and, it is the greatest regret of my life. These missions are abusive terms of brain washing that waste the best years of youth in an abusive cult. LDS missionaries are allowed to talk to family or friends every moment of their day is programmed this is cult abuse at its worst. The church also charges the family of the missionary more than the kid is given to live on what a scam.

Either I'm being censored or there is something wrong with the server, because I don't see my response.

In a nutshell - these people (and most likely those who even claim to not be Mormon) are simply Mormon internet watchdogs. Stories like this are spread in their online communities and then people run in guns-ablazing to see if anyone is speaking up against them, and then they try to gangtackle any such common sense. These people are not affiliated with CMU in any way, shape or form. I am an alumni, this is the reason I check this website.

They love to claim "hey, no pressure, just check it out!" after they send all of these people after you. If there were no pressure, there wouldn't be girls standing at the street corner trying to convert people. I'm not threatened - they are threatened of people like me. People with common sense, with intelligence - and day by day, you will see more of others like me. We've got our Henry Rollins, our Greg Graffin and our Lewis Black and we're getting stronger. This is why the Mormons are afraid.

As a convert to Mormonism, and a member for many years, I can vouch for what Adam has said. And while many of the rank and file members are good people, the corporation known as L.D.S. Inc. is corrupt to the core. Religion is only one part of it. Right now they are building a huge mall in Salt Lake City, and high end real estate in Oahu. They have many other business holdings in banking, farming, media, etc.,too numerous to list here. It's a complete fraud that Joe and his buddies invented to make money off of new recruits. And it's still ripping off new recruits, to the tune of 10% of their income, plus other hidden expenses. It's an organization that uses high doses of guilt, fear, and shame to keep its members in line, so that they'll do their bidding without questioning. In the meantime L.D.S. Inc. mucky mucks at the top of the 'food chain' are laughing all the way to the bank! www.exmormon.org

Gee, Adam... and others, I''m reminded of the old saying "give a man a little knowledge and he thinks he is wise".
Do you honestly think that watching a Hollywood film of any kind will give us truth. It is the most effective way to spread ones own agenda, with little regard for the truth. Likewise looking up information about anything on a web site soley and completely designed to spread lies and falsehoods, eggagerate human weaknesses, and disregard truth will harvest nothing but false information, and lies.
I'm not wure why you can't do the math yourself. There was Joseph, (1) the Three witnesses (3) and the Eight witnesses (8), they add up to 12. The sarcasm about an error in numbers is juvenile and unnecessary. The sad paft of all of this is you obviously don't care about what is really true. Your agenda is only to put down and mock the truth. What are you afraid of?

Adam,

As a Christian who doesn't believe in Mormon belief I just want to ask you 1 thing. Why does it bug you and threaten you so much that someone believes in something other than you? Does it really matter that much to you what someone else believes in? Lots of people that find their calling are happy people. How about you? I noticed that you quote listening to Religulous, which is derived from a bitter individual that is not happy about anything and believes that it is his way or the highway.. so ots like his own religion (interesting). What do you get to show for it in the end anyway? Or is it about being superior to everyone else. Interesting though you had to call out every single individual that disagrees with you. And BTW, the creater of Religulous Religiously believes in Harry Reid.

11? 15? Even you Mormons can't make up your minds. I would like to refer to the website set-up my former Mormons to help those trying to leave the church: http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm

Zac - being in the political arena does not mean anything. There are neo-Nazis in the European parliaments, should we applaud their courage too? Mitt Romney would've been absolutely HORRIBLE for this country and would have set us back 150 years.

Anthony - who says I don't understand it? What is there possibly involved that could be beyond my understanding?

Gus Pendleton, "M.D." - Studies done by whom, Mormons? An educated guess would be that they have invested so much time and money (especially money) that they need to justify their actions in taking part.

Chris Price - this is typical religion-fueled nonsense. "We are right because we follow X as given to us by Y". "I believe Scientology: The Fundamentals of Though to be the true word because L. Ron Hubbard says to". This is not even CLOSE to an agrument, but merely an opinion - one most likely passed down to you by your parents. You are scared of being wrong, therefore you dig a deeper hole into your trench. Climb out, man.

Jill Jenkins "Ph.D." - If a God can speak directly to people, why would an additional book be needed? Joseph Smith wanted to create his own set of rules to play by, just as King James did. And like his people, you fell for it - hook, line and sinker.

Jay - In this case, why would the plates need to be in reformed Egyptian? Why would the Angel not translate them? So this man is a “prophet”, and then returned these plates to an angel when he was done? And none of this is sounding the least bit ridiculous to you? Ever heard of a microscope? Proof is in the pudding.

Margaret – I love how you speak of magical plates shown to an individual and then tell me to get my “facts” straight. Thanks for the laugh.

Chris – That is not a fact, in the least bit. How intelligent do you believe people were in Biblical times? Anyone who discredits the validity of Joseph Smith is an educated person who can take a step back from the situation and say “…. seriously? You believe that?”. This stuff would make a crappy Aesop’s Fable. Then again, I thought people today were more evolved, but then I read these comments.

Richard Jensen – I can read the introduction to a R.L. Stein book, that doesn’t make it factual or accurate.

Tina – “ “


I feel poorly for each and every one of you. While I believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs, there is no denying Mormons push their far more onto others than any other group. As an ex-Roman Catholic, I am afraid for this country and what future may be ahead if individual continue to fall down this steep slope of ignorance and lies. Please, watch the films Jesus Camp and Religulous.

I am not ignorant for my disbelief, you are for your belief if you want to play that game.

I received my master's degree from Central Michigan University in 1986 and have fond memories of the campus. I too rejoice in the knowledge that God exists and has chosen to speak to a latter-day prophet named Joseph Smith. Just a man like me, but with an overwhelming desire to love others as his exemplar, Jesus Christ loved us all, even those who "know not where to find it" meaning the truth. Keep up the good work in Mt. Pleasant sisters!!

Joseph Smith, Jr., did show the plates of the Book of Mormon to others, and they testified they had seen the plates and signed their names to that testimony. Not one of the witnesses ever denied seeing the plates. Their experiences were contemporaneously documented. The Book of Mormon is a record of Christ's visits to His "other sheep", the people of the Americas, and is another Testament of His teachings. Along with the Bible, which Latter Day Saints also study, the Book of Mormon teaches us what Our Heavenly Father wants us to do and be.

I have to whole-heartedly disagree with the last post, from Mr. Price. With all respect, and having been "born into the covenant" and a member for nearly 40 years, I found the truth. Do not trust in "feelings" alone.

"Never give meat, when milk will do." --Robert Millet, a Professor at BYU

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed” (J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years, p.24).

"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE"
Dallin Oaks, LDS apostle

"Some things that are true are not very useful."
Boyd K. Packer

"The merciful companion to truth is silence, Some truths are best left unsaid."
Apostle Russel M. Nelson

Now, does that sound like an org you can trust to give you the whole truth?

If you are investigating Mormonism (aka: The LDS Church), you MUST look beyond the Book of Mormon to find their Doctrine.

Find the truth--for "truth does not fear investigation".

Adam, FYI - the ancient record was indeed shown to others, as is evidenced in their written and signed testimonies. Please find a Book of Mormon and other Mormon history and read their statements for yourself.

Fifteen men did see the Golden plates. Although some later left the church, they nevver denied their testimony.It can be found inside the beginning of the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

It's absurd to believe that a man was resurrected from the dead after being crucified and laid in a tomb for three days, but it too is fact, just as The Book of Mormon and the account of its translation are. Anyone who discredits the validity of Joseph Smiths account and the authenticity of The Book of Mormon is ignorant to the account itself and should study the matter from the source, The Book of Mormon itself.

Hey, by the way Joseph Smith showed the plates to three witness and then 8 more....just so you know people did see them and testify they are real and were shown them by an angel. Get your facts straight buddy.

>>Today, in 2009, people still believe that some dude named Joseph Smith found some magical golden plates that only he could translate (from “reformed Egyptian”), yet never showed anyone the plates? Are you KIDDING ME?!

He did show it to 8 guys and the Angel that gave him the plates and taught him about "reformed Egyptian" showed record to three others.

Your disdain for something you can't see is nothing different from those who just wouldn't let go of the geocentric model of the Universe for the heliocentric model.

Why do you believe in nuclear physics, presuming you do, because you can't see electrons or protons either?

The funny thing is, if you would be willing to consider all the facts and perform an experiment based in our 2009 reality, you would "know" that it really did happen the way that Mr. Smith said it did.

Is your mind already made up and you look for "facts" to support your belief? Or, can you be honest with yourself and seek real facts and real truth where it can be found?

So what is the experiment? Find the nearest Mormon Missionary and and him or her to explain it to you. When this experiment is performed with precision, the results are predictable.

Allah hua akbar.

Adam, if you are going to criticize someone or something, you should become more educated on the subject. In the first few pages of the Book of Mormon there are “The Testimony of the Three Witnesses” and “The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses”. The eight witnesses signed their names to their testimony that they saw, touched and turned the pages of the gold plates (which aren’t magic) and the three witnesses signed their names that an angel of God showed them the plates and the voice of God declared that the plates had been translated by the gift and power of God. But then, maybe you don't believe in the Bible either as the word of God. We certainly do believe in the Bible and that God has given us the Book of Mormon and other books of scripture to verify the truthfulness of the Bible. As Chris said, maybe you could investigate the Mormon church and even if you didn't believe it is true, at least you would be a better informed critic.

Adam-

Just wanted you to know that 11 people saw the plates and wrote their witnesses in the front of the Book of Mormon. Though some of these people later left the L.D.S. Church, ALL went to their deaths swearing that the testimony of the plates they had given was true. You can read their words in the front section of every copy of the Book of Mormon.

Adam,
Joseph Smith actually did show the plates to 11 other people, with the permission of Heavenly Father. They are known as the 3 witness and the 8 witnesses.

Adam,

You are clearly speaking from an uninformed viewpoint. Nobody is "KIDDING YOU." Education is not the benchmark here. Faithful Latter Day Saints have a knowledge and testimony of the Truth of the Church and the Book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ because they answered the challenge to apply the basic principles and to pray for confirmation from the Lord whether it was true or not. I have had a reasonable education and a good career in Senior management in the UK; I am now 72 years of age and all of my experiences in life have just further confirmed my knowledge of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
I challenge you to contact your local LDS church and investigate it with an open mind. I promise you that you will be shown courtesy and respect, also you will not be coerced or brainwashed in any way.

Studies have shown that the more highly educated Latter-day Saints are, the more likely they are to be active participants in their faith and believe the doctrines of their faith. This does not seem to hold true for other religions. The Book of Mormon is just what it claims to be and if studied carefully will be a great blessing to those who apply its teachings.

Adam,

No need to feel threatened by something you don't understand, and no need to ridicule or demean another's religon. This is not the behavior of a truly educated man. Nor is it a demonstration of education to make false statements. There are quite a few signed, sworn, statements of people to whom those plates were shown. I respect your right to not believe. Please respect the constitutional rights of others to believe and share those beliefs.

Pretty shallow and ignorant argument Adam. It's sad that you feel threatened by someone writing something good about the Mormon Church. My suggestion would be to get out and see the world a little. Perhaps in a way similar to these girls.

I'm not mormon, but I have known some. I have always been impressed not just with their resolve to live clean lives but with their level of intelligence. It also is intriguing to see how wide mormons are spread out through the political arena: from Harry Reid to Mitt Romney.

Also, I think those girls are in a perfect spot right now. One of the most important things a person can do is learn to live their lives for someone else. Sounds like this is what's going on. They are doing their best to serve the people in Mount Pleasant.

Well done ladies.

Johanan,

I find it hard to believe that one could obtain a Ph. D and still, in good consciousness, believe the tripe being fed to them from something like this. Any educated individual should be able to see through these obviously absurd tales that are not meant to be taken in a literal sense yet for some reason still are today. Today, in 2009, people still believe that some dude named Joseph Smith found some magical golden plates that only he could translate (from "reformed Egyptian"), yet never showed anyone the plates? Are you KIDDING ME?!

These girls need to leave and do something meaningful with their lives, because this is not.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933/

I served one of these missions too and paid for half of it by working at Dairy Queen on weekends during High School (an anonymous donor paid for the rest of it). Those 2 years have had a greater positive effect on my life than any other 2 years of my life. I am now finishing my Ph.D. at Purdue University and the more I learn about the Book of Mormon and the Bible, the more grateful I am for these books of scripture in my life. I have read books almost non-stop since age 12, and these two books are the most powerful I have ever read- they make me sincerely want to be a better person every time I open them.