Two young women stand Tuesday afternoon on the corner of Ottawa Court and Washington Street. One wears a long skirt and the other jeans.
Behind them is an oversized copy of the Book of Mormon. It is a conversation starter made of cloth and tubing.
They are on a mission to spread their religion to legions of students.
“This makes me happier than anything else in my life,” said Jeralyn Turnblom, a 22-year-old Mormon missionary from Bountiful, Utah.
She greets the students who walk by, asking them how they were and if they had heard of the Book of Mormon.
Mormon traditions say the book was translated by Joseph Smith in the early- to mid-1800s. It details many events, including Jesus’ return to the Earth after his resurrection.
Sister Jeralyn Turnblom, a Mormon missionary from Utah, evangelizes for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Nov. 24 near Pearce Hall. (Libby March/Staff Photographer)
A long trip
Turnblom and her fellow missionary, Ashley Webb, 18, of Highland, Utah, are on 18-month missionary trips.
The practice is common, but not required, for young Mormon adults.
They have been in Mount Pleasant for the last seven weeks. They are unsure when they will leave or where they will go next.
“It’s so much fun. We go to the basketball games, the football games — I love it,” Webb said.
The pair works with local members of the Church of the Latter-Day Saints, such as 18-year-old Jessica Pilling, a Canada freshman at Mid-Michigan Community College.
They spread the word on campus and usually arrange about 10 meetings a day with people interested in the religion. They teach their faith in the library study rooms and residence hall rooms.
A tough gig
But representing a minority religion with spotty portrayal in the media can be difficult.
“If I didn’t really believe it, it would be really, really hard,” Webb said.
Events such as the April 2008 raid on a polygamist compound in Texas and popular shows such as HBO’s “Big Love” often poison the well before they can even begin to speak.
“That wasn’t even Mormons. That was an offshoot group, the Fundamentalists,” Pilling said about “Big Love,” though the statement holds true about the Texas compound as well.
Pilling is a longtime track athlete and hammer thrower training in hopes of receiving a scholarship to a university.
She wants to go on a mission when she reaches the required age of 21 for female missionaries.
“I’ve had my own personal experience and trust my feelings,” she said. “I believe Heavenly Father calls us to the places where we teach.”
E-mail the author: 
Connor Sheridan
(Powered by 
The article was wrong on the ages. Ashley is 21. Girls going on missions go at 21. The boys go at age 19. One of the girls in the picture is 18 and a student there and the missionary is 21.
There really is a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Although it is hard to believe, He lives. If you would like to know for yourself, just reach out for His Noodly Appendage and you will receive your answer. Flying Spaghetti Monster is the light of our universe.
Adam – I find it interesting that you feel that religion–specifically the LDS church–and education do not mix. One of the main doctrines of the LDS church is that members should “Obtain as much education as possible.” This means secular as well as spiritual. Logic tells me that a church that is intentionally misleading its members would not be encouraging its members to get “as much education as possible”, for fear of its members becoming wise to the scheme. The LDS church is full of well educated and influential people. The leadership of the church is no exception. It includes a former surgeon, a Utah supreme court justice, a nuclear engineer, several well-known businessmen, three university presidents, a lawyer, and a pilot. These men have dedicated a great part of their lives to serving in the LDS church, and receive no compensation for their service.
I truly believe that men and women of education, those who are open enough to accept there is a God, will have the truthfulness of the restored gospel made known to them–not only in their hearts, but also in their minds. This can be achieved only through SINCERE study and contemplation. God and His church are not threatened by education.
Shirlee – It may walk like a duck, it may sound like a duck – but it slithers like a snake. These missions are disguised under the humanitarian umbrella but we all know they are simply conversion methods. This is no different than the Christians who “give aid” in Africa and then push their policies on birth control fueling the spread of the HIV virus throughout the country simply because they do not want the individuals to practice safety. The church is to humanitarian efforts as PETA is to animal rights – homeland terrorism that often has the opposite effect (but of course the idiocy of PETA is for a different time).
Loretta – as I said, I was raised Roman Catholic. I went through the 3 major childhood steps, and yet it was at the end of the process that everything finally made sense – the church is a business, one that tries to provide comfort and safety to those who are weak at a cost. The church my family belonged to, for example, would routinely solicit donations far and above what is necessary for any kind of charitable organization. Looking further into the background of the religion as a whole, there are far too many errors and terrible ideologies for me to even want to believe.
Do you really want to believe in a god that killed all the first born Egyptian children? One that drowned the world? How about the Midianite massacre? The Crusades? The King of Bashan’s people? One that states that if you work on a Sunday you must be killed? One that forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other? I could continue, and by your own book’s account, your god has killed millions of people.
As a caveat, what are your thoughts on fossils? Are they merely a few thousand years old?
Educated, you say? I have two words for you:
Temple. Garment.
Dr. Adam. When some men are learned they think they are wise. How sad. You know nothing of what you claim. Nothing. No more need said.
Censorship Central,
Sorry in the interest of brevity, I did not explain the obvious. As a result of my prayers, I received a revelatory answer inasmuch that I had a warm burning feeling come over me and the word ‘Mormon’ was placed into my mind by the Spirit. Albeit I had revived an early childhood Catholic interest in God and had found too much confusion as to which or what was truth, I had little understanding of Spiritual revelation. Because the word had been placed in my mind I then knew to ask the right question.
Also I am not an “Mormon Internet Watchdog” (whatever that is). I picked up on this story by following a news link on an LDS site.
I would ask why do you and others who blindly criticise our faith feel that there is a need to do so. Yes we do follow Christs admonition to be His witness and to spread the Gospel. We do this by invitation and not coercion.
Latter Day Saints are not perfect and while some fall short, most are striving to live a good life, we denigrate no man or religion and certainly do not countenance force or derision.
To the statement by Chris Price of “I would ask why do you and others who blindly criticise our faith feel that there is a need to do so.”, heres your response;
From the past, your church has to to apologize for the Meadow Mountain slaughter, for the current, you want all gay people to burn.
I am not a Mormon, but am sympathetic to them, because having attended a chapel for 4 months I know they are good people. I write from London, England, and I don’t think those in America who criticise the LDS Church realise how lucky they are to live in a country that still has thriving Christian churches. Here in England there is a direct inverse relationship between the decline in belief and a rise in family disintegration, with all the misery that is associated. Furthermore, it is obvious that believers in God are much less prone to violence than the God-less. The most evil people of the twentieth century were Stalin and Hitler, both atheists and responsible for the death of 13 million and 6.5 million respectively. These Mormom missionaries are doing a great job in helping the USA avoid slipping the way of Europe.
As members of the church we are taught the three most important things we do in this life is care for the poor and feed the hungry and cloth the naked. No requirement given. We do it freely as does the church whenever and whenever it can. The church requires nothing of countrys or states when help is given, it is totally given as a service to those in need. We as wards continually put our resources together and help
those in need and never think a thing other than it felt wonderful to help those who at the time cannot help themselves. Most of the time we don’t even know who we are giving too other than the ladies who are in charge and get to deliver it to the ones in need. We have canneries where we all go and give of our time to can and bottle for those in need. The church furnishes all the foods and meat we work with and there never is a charge for those who need. How can you be a know it all about matters you know nothing about?
Ted,
Really, your answer was a bit weak. Do you have a historic connection with the ‘Mountain Meadows’ massacre, maybe family? This should not have happened, the members involved were wrong and the Church leaders were quite distressed over this terrible incident. The only mitigation was possibly that they had endured wicked persecution from people who should have known better. Unfortunately there are very few organizations whether religious or polical etc who sadly do not have something in there past that is best forgotten. What is important is what we do with our time and opportunities in the here and now.
The Church does not advocate Gay people should burn. We believe in their right to choose their own lifestyle and whilst we consider their way of life and sexual practices wrong, we would uphold their right to live in this way. We have love for all mankind but not necessarily for the things that they do. Incidentally I have Gay friend (not just tokenism)one of them a friend for 40 years. we accept and respect each other viewpoint without rancour
We believe that marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God and that marriage is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
Please speak from a position of strength, investigate and learn the truth, even if you do not embrace the LDS faith you will at least have a better understanding.
Chris,
I didn’t see a “Yes, the Meadows Massacre was our doing and we take responsibility”, rather, “it should not of happened”. Awesome.
“The Church does not advocate Gay people should burn”, really? According to you, does their final resting place smell of roses or sulfur?
I just love the ideology that a man can be a serial murder, find faith within the confines of prison and those that practice the religion believe this man has absolved his sins (crimes) and will find a resting spot in heaven (such as Jeffrey Dahmer).
However, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Dave Matthews, Brad Pitt, Neil Peart, Albert Einstein, Richard Branson, Ricky Gervais, Lance Armstrong, Dana White, Woody Allen, Penn & Teller and Eddie Vedder are all coming to hell with me.
I’ll stay here with David Cross and Lewis Black.
Ted,
Over the years the Church has regularly condemned what happened in this massacre. They also own and maintain the monument that was erected in memory of those who died. Further on Wednesday September the 12th 2007 a formal apology was made, in the interest of brevity I copy part as follows:
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a long-awaited apology Tuesday for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in southwestern Utah.
Elder Henry B. Eyring of the Quorum of the Twelve read the church’s statement on assignment from the church’s governing First Presidency during a memorial ceremony at the gravesite of some of the massacre victims at Mountain Meadows, about 35 miles northwest of St. George.
The statement also places blame for the Sept. 11, 1857, massacre on the local church leaders at the time and church members who followed their orders to murder some 120 unarmed men, women and children.
“We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time,” Elder Eyring said”.
As for Gay people, none of us can absolutely know what our final resting place will be like. I would say it is more likely to be smelling of roses and certainly not Sulpher. In my personal opinion ‘Hell’ will be more in our state of mind knowing what we could have achieved if we had but lived a better life, be we Latter Day Saints,Gays or whatever.
None of us are perfect, neither you or I. The Lord recognised this and His plan for us included the principle of repentance. Which effectively means total remorse for and a complete turning away from our sinful past to embrace the life that he would have us live.
If you study your Bible you will see this for yourself. Hopefully you will also accept my invitation to properly investigate the Church with an open mind and a desire to know the truth.
Did I mention brevity somewhere? Oh well, we can’t always be perfect! I will be away for a couple of days,I expect you will want to reply?
Good afternoon Chris,
To your first point, nope. This statement (Which was the only attempt), is not to admit ownership nor to apologize for the event, but only acknowledges the incident.
To the last point, im not sure your on the same page with your doctrine. It is your contention as a Mormon, gay people are sinners and will go to hell (Hence the Sulfur). I can provide you with all the suporting text and actions from your church if you like.
Hello Ted,
Well, we look as though we might be the last ones on this blog. I suspect that you and I will never actually agree, but then if everyone agreed at all times I feel something will have been lost in this life of ours.
You may well be right, in that this was the first formal apology but the Church stance has been a matter of record for a very long time. Whilst you may not accept that this was an apology it has largely been accepted as such by the descendants of those who were killed. As a point of interest have you ever studied the persecution, violent abuse, rape(s) and murder(s) committed against the early Latter Day Saints? This of course does not in anyway condone or justify this horrific massacre, but it does paint on a broader canvass the background that affected the mindset of the people who committed such an atrocious act.
As to the question of Gay’s and their destination in the hereafter, being able to cite texts etc. leads to the question of understanding and interpretation. Your definition of Hell is rather different to the one I believe in. What is important is how we live our lives, centred in Christ or Centred in some other lifestyle. The Lord and His Church love the sinner but there is no place for the sin in the hereafter. The unrepentant sinner
Cannot achieve the highest level of reward, the New Testament teaches of varying levels of glory for us when we leave this mortal life. Following Judgement, our destination will be to a Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial (“Moon”) glory See 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. We also know that there will be many mansions John 14:2. These scriptures clearly indicate levels of reward.
As a Latter day Saint I hope to achieve Celestial Glory, if as a result of my life’s actions I fall short I might well only achieve the Telestial Glory, that for me will be Hell; the anguish at knowing I had had the opportunity of doing better and Had blown it. This is effectively damnation, my eternal progress will have been blocked as a result of sin. This I would suggest is the fate for all that are guilty of sexual sin and are unrepentant feeling no remorse for their acts. The Lords way is Marriage between a Man and a Woman; no other way is acceptable to Him. The Church supports this stance and lovingly calls people to repentance. I would still encourage you to be open minded and properly investigate the true teachings of the Church. I believe the Hellfire & Sulphur teaching belongs to other Christian faiths.
I appreciate all that Chris has said, it is what we believe. We have a Heavenly Father who loves us and will do all He can to make sure we all come home. But we are in the drivers seat and through Godgiven agency we choose how we will live and whom we will follow. There has to be opposition in all things so that we have the ability to choose and all good comes from God and all that is bad in the world comes from the inticings of Satan to get us to go against the Father’s plan of happiness for us. We are here to be tested to see what we will choose to do. He even wept in the scriptures as he and Enoch spoke and Enoch asked Him why he wept being that He was perfect and all knowing and He told Enoch “because these are my workmanship, I created them and in the Garden of Eden I gave them their agency. Here He knew He would lose part of his beloved children because the principle of agency is so important, that He doesn’t force us to do good or even bad, we make that choice. He has some truths that are of eternal consequences though that have always been and will always be. Preciousness of live, so no murders, abortions. Marriage between men and women, he created them as such for a purpose, to procreate and fill the earth. That includes sexual purity before marriage. Kindness and compassion, caring for the poor and needy instead of hate and anger and unkindness and not caring for those in need. We chose and our choices will put us in the kingdom we have lived in the way to earn. Like Chris, I want to live in such a way that I can along with my family can return to the Celestial kingdom where I can be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The greatest hell we will experience will be in our mind and heart because of the possiblities we have of making it and choose not to. Christ taught the way and was the true example. His atonement is always there for us to use to help us repent and be forgiven of all we do wrong on a daily basic if we are sincere and truly striving. If there are those in our church who hate, it is a personal matter of their own. We are not taught to or encouraged to hate anyone, our prophet is always teaching us to be more kind, more loving, more forgiving, to love the sinner, but not the sin, weather we are in or out of the church, we are all brothers and sisters and each is totally responsible for his own actions and intent of our hearts and will stand before our Heavenly Father and account for our choices while here on Earth. I know one thing for sure. He will look up the good that we have done on this Earth over the mistakes. His judgements will be just and also mercy will be given, but in the end we will be where we have chosen to be why the lives we have chosen to live. What commandments and teachings we put into our lives and what amount of knowledge we understood of His plan that we will be held accountable for, are some of the things we will be judged in that day.
Afternoon Chris,
We did find one point we agree to, we will never agree….
In relation to a formal apology, they have none. For your response of persecution, one evil act does not negate another evil act.
In relation to gays and citing the bible, no. If it is written in English, most people in the US do not need it interpreted by another. If I have do not have a definition for a word, ill rely on Webster.
For the last paragraph, well, its not going to matter what I say as it is solely based on your belief. However, to your comment of “Sexual Sin”, if you believe gays suffer this sin, how does Joseph Smith also not follow suit with 30 simultaneously wives?
Ted,
I do find it rather strange that you cannot accept what the World at large accepts as an apology. I do agree with you two wrongs do not make a right. However if you are fair and open minded you should also be concerned at what happened to the early Latter Day Saints. As a direct result of unfounded persecution many more people died than were killed in the Mountain Meadows massacre. Further people suffered extreme abuse including, Rape, tar & feathering and being driven out of their homes etc.
Assuming you would not accept LDS citations I quoted from the Bible; these scriptures clearly show that there is a place for all of us based upon our faithfulness and behaviour in this life. Also whilst Websters is a useful resource on many subjects it would never claim to be a definitive authority on God given matters.
Virtually all of the objections made against the Church by nonmembers and ex members alike, are made on the basis that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet of God. Whatever they object to turns on whether Joseph Smith and his successors were and are prophets of God receiving divine revelation. Prior to 1962 I would not have believed that, I had personal revelation in answer to my prayers and after thorough investigation I came to know that the Church was true, that Joseph Smith was indeed a Prophet of God.
I personally can accept that two men or indeed two women can live together in a friendship relationship, but cannot accept their claim to be treated as equal to a man & his wife in a God ordained or indeed a civil marital relationship. When it comes to their sexual practices then clearly they are going against the law of nature and because they are trying to replicate an act of procreation then they are effectively declaring that their relationship is not normal.
With regards to Plural Marriage this was ordained of God by revelation to Joseph Smith, This of course hinges upon whether you believe he was a Prophet. Whereas the scriptures clearly teach that homosexuality is a sin. Incidentally on the Family Search website 24 wives are listed.
I would still be interested in knowing why you feel a need to attack the LDS Church in this way? Have you had a bad experience with religion? Are you a disaffected Latter Day Saint?
Good afternoon Chris,
I see your responses are becoming longer and longer, so to help keep this in a simple text;
Mormons have not sampled the “World at large” on any topic.
No matter how many times you bring up evil acts committed against Mormons, evil does not negate evil. The more you bring it up, the more we believe you are trying to justify it.
Your LDS citations were not relevant as it did not mention homosexuals and there resting place. Cite passage and we will move further.
Im not concerned if Joseph Smith was or was not a prophet. Ive read his bio which presents a less than moral character, at least for me
The Christian/Mormon god did not create the institution of marriage. That being said, you do not have the right to dictate what it is and force it upon everyone.
The “Law of nature” is do what one wants. So yes, it follows the law of nature
So plural marriage is a good thing as God ordained it to Joseph Smith?
The scriptures also cleary teach that non believers should be killed. Does that mean Congress should adopt a policy to kill all non Christians as well as banning gay marriage?
We disagree on the amount, but even at 24, that doesn’t sound like a sexual deviant to you?
Ted,
Clearly your answers choose to ignore or twist the meaning of what does not suit you in my comments. I am curious as to who are the “we” in line 4 of your diatribe. Is there really more than one who appears as bitter as yourself?
Reference Homosexuality as LDS citations are “not relevant” try reading: Romans 1:24-32; 1Corinthians 6:9-11; ! Timothy 1:8-10; Jude 1:7; Genesis1:27, 13:13, 18:20-22; Leviticus 18:22-29, 20:13 and Deuteronomy 23:17. I have already previously explained about mankinds final “resting place.” Also as I told you Hellfire & Sulphur teaching belongs to other Christian faiths.
You may not be concerned as to whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, but I testify to you in all solemnity that he was and that God called him to be so.
Likewise I testify to you that Marriage between one man and one woman was ordained of God, no amount of saying otherwise can change that, it is an Eternal and Everlasting fact and Law. No one dictates or forces anyone into marriage, it is a relationship of love and is freely entered into by those who love and care about each other; others can choose to live as they please that is their right. However if they wilfully ignore Gods law they will one day have to answer for it on the day of judgement.
I cannot believe you actually believe your Law of Nature comment. I doubt that there is an intelligent person in the world who believes that, whether Christian, Scientist, Politician or even Atheist.
You appear to have deliberately misread my comment on Plural Marriage. It was Plural Marriage that was ordained of God and was received by revelation to Joseph who obeyed Gods Law. 24 or 32 wives
is irrelevant it was Gods revealed law.
The killing of non believers in scriptural times has to be read in the context of the times. With a Prophet at the head of the Lords Church we believe in continuing revelation. What was relevant in those days is not so today. It is facetious to suggest that it could be applied in this day and age. Mind you I have read of extreme right and indeed left wingers who would be happy to adopt it, also there is still at least one faith that have sections of their community that practice it.
Finally I note that you continue to ignore my interest in where you are coming from, it might be quite revealing. As for length of message, this is in the interest of honest debate, also I ask, because I am concerned for your eternal welfare.
Good afternoon Chris,
“We” refers to others who question the statements/actions of your church. As far as bitter, I am not, however I find it amusing you take questions and challenges as such.
Finally some specific passages, and to which, you nailed them on the head. However, it then means you follow the word of god to the letter. Based on the old testament, your would fate is that of homosexuals
Again, this is your faith, no need to sell me on it.
Again, history shows marriage predates Christianity and Mormons. So you can follow your belief as facts and we will follow history for our facts.
Find me any animal that does anything it does not desire to. Heres a hint, you wont. If an animal wants to eats, he eats. If he wants to sleep, he sleeps. Natural Law is to do as one wants.
No, my response was spot on. Joseph Smith had 24/30 wives. If you ask any one today who they belived to be a sexual deviant, a homosexual or a man with 24/30 wives, there going to find against the man with 24/30 wives.
Ah, so words of yesterday cannot be applied to today. I wonder how did you determine which ones are not irrelevant anymore?
My interests are based on your religions actions against others. What you do in your own house is yours which I respect, however when your beliefs infringe upon others, action is needed.
Hi Ted,
My PC has had a fit of the ‘heebie jeebies) hence my delay in responding.
In the UK the word “We” used in your context normally indicates that you are speaking with authority on behalf of other people or you are the Queen of England, sometimes referred to as the ‘Royal We’. With regard to my use of the word “bitter” I used it because this is how your message read.
If you had taken up my invitation to properly investigate LDS teachings you would not have made some of the statements that you list. A careful study of the Scriptures clearly shows that some writings refer to past events and their context to the then present and to the future. Then some are purely specific to the time that they were written and others are prophecies regarding the future. In Amos 3:7 we read: “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” This is precisely why God called Joseph Smith to be a Prophet, God had work for His children (mankind) to do; He needed a Prophet upon the Earth so that He could reveal through revelation what He wanted us to do. Our future Eternal progress is determined upon how we respond to His will.
I am not trying to “Sell” anything to you. I am trying to show you that you are following false dogma and your need to turn onto the true path. I have no bad feelings towards Homosexuals; it is just that I absolutely know that their lifestyle is not in accord with our Father in Heavens will.
As for Marriage, my concept of human history is that God created the Heavens and the Earth, He placed Adam & Eve upon the Earth and they were married to each other Eve was Adams wife (See Genesis chapter 2). Again a careful study of the scriptures will show you that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ of the New Testament are one and the same (for example see John 1:1-3 all Christian ministers will tell you Christ is the Word of God). That is true history. Failure to understand this fact means that many people fall into the same error as you have done.
I cannot believe your comment regarding Natural Law, what you are describing is the ‘law of self’. The Law of Nature refers to the workings of planet Earth; The times, the seasons, also the planting and growing from seed to plant etc. It also includes the natural way to create a child. In this regard so called ‘Gay’ sexual practices are deviant and not natural.
As previously stated, Joseph Smiths marriages were as a result of a commandment by way of revelation to him from God; they were not a lustful action in any way. I accept that people in this day & age would not accept it, but it was a specific revelation in the light of circumstances at that time. I believe that a large majority of people do still believe that the Gay person’s sexual act is a perversion. That it is normal is a minority opinion. Of course minorities are not always wrong, but in this case they most definitely are!
Finally, revelation from God determines relevance. How does the LDS Church today infringe upon others? I agree “action is needed” you need to properly investigate the Church and learn the truth, it might surprise you!
Good afternoon Chris,
In relation to the first paragraph, fair enough and understood.
In relation to the second paragraph, we have a different understanding of religious texts. Every religious book is from God to man in a format that is to be understood by all. That being said, we have thousands of pages telling us, If you do X, Y will happen to you. Again, as these are in a simple format, they cannot be misunderstood by time nor definition. They are lessons for all of time. So what you are telling me is a bending of gods word to fit your needs.
You believe their lifestyle is not in accord with you Father in Heaven which is fine, as long as you keep it in your house. Its when your religion lobbies congress to force this upon everyone that creates discord to your faith.
Im not sure how you do not understand Natural Law? Natural Law is simple, there is no law. Even still, if you persist with this avenue, it is just as conceivable that this is gods method of evolution. If god made all of heaven and earth and he makes no mistakes, he knowingly created homosexuals.
If you believe homosexuals are sexual deviants and plural wives are not, nothing is going to change your mind. To your rebuttal however, if plural wives is a directive from god, why is it not in force today?
Lastly, your closing statement needs a correction. Revelation from God as explained thru man determines relevance. To this end, man is wrong.
Dear Ted,
I cannot agree with your statement regarding religious text. All Latter Day Saints accept the LDS scriptures as the word of God and have a view that there is value in others, often the work of man rather than of God. I personally have several versions of the Bible snd have learnt much of value from them a variety of other books. We do not bend the true word of God and hopefully do not have a distorted or misinterpreted view of other writings. Certainly many scriptural teachings indicate a result or a consequence of obeying or rejecting Gods word.
I am an English citizen, so I cannot comment too authoritively on perceived representations made to Congress. I do know that the Church would not want to force anyone to live according to its teachings. We would encourage homosexuals to live that which we believe to be a more natural way of live. However, we would honour their right to live as they see fit, after all it is they who are trying to change the law and many are openly abusive and hostile to anyone who disagrees with them.
I did not say I misunderstand the law of nature. I was referring to the order of how things work in this world and the universe. Whereas you appear to be referring to a human behavioural law, whichever aspect you look at there is a rule of law. God created Man in his own image and it is man when exercising his free agency who makes the mistakes.
Plural marriage was decreed because of the circumstances of the time. Latter Day Saints believe in upholding the law of the land, when the law was changed by the Government of the USA the Prophet sought the Lords guidance and as a result of revelation Plural marriage was stopped. Breakaway groups, apostates and others not of the Church continued to practice it.
I stand by my last paragraph, God reveals His will, the Prophet proclaims it, Man then has a choice to do His will or not. If he chooses to be disobedient then he is wrong.
You sound a nice enough sort of guy but you have been misled or are confused on the subject of LDS teachings; again I would strongly urge you to properly investigate our Church and then if you cannot accept what is taught you will at least be speaking from a more informed point of view. Many have taken this path and put aside their misconceptions and joined the Church. Many others of course have rejected the truth and that is their God given right so to do.
Good evening Chris,
To your first point, if all scriptures are the word of god and man decides what is relevant, there is no point to any of it as man is prone to error.
In the US, your church actively lobbies against homosexuals at the local and federal level. Not sure how you are not aware of that. That would equate to a Christian not knowing the actions of the pope.
If man is gods image, then god is part homosexual. If not, man is not gods image.
Local law supersedes gods law? If your god is all powerful and knowing why would he bow down to the laws of the united states?
There is no confusion. If you tell me the books are gods word yet make exceptions for every point, I am left with either, your god is flawed or the books are not gods word.
Overall, we are never going to agree. A god for me does not create cryptic directions nor make statements that have no historical nor scientific facts.
Hi Ted,
You appear to have misread what I wrote. I will simplify it for you. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Other Editions of the Bible, The Koran and the Tanakh etc. are all sources that can supply insight. The Bible has been translated by many people over the years and contains some errors and omissions. We can determine the truth by listening to Gods Prophet here on the Earth today.
I do know what the Church stance is in relation to Homosexuals; I did not know the specifics of your legislative program. I repeat it again to ensure you understand it: The Church encourages legislators to vote against homosexual marriage. Stating its policy that marriage should be between one man and one woman. Incidentally
The Church SUPPORTED legislation that homosexuals should NOT be discriminated against when it comes to matters of employment and housing.
As already stated God created Man and Woman and decreed marriage between them to be the right way. He did not create a third sex without the power of procreation.
Latter Day Saints, Christians, are required to be in the world, not of the world. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honouring, and sustaining the law. God gave man free agency, the ability to choose the right or the wrong path and will not interfere with our choices. Unfortunately some have chosen the latter, this often infringes upon personal liberty and leads to conflict of views. This put the Church in an untenable position, we ourselves could not impose our way of life on others, hence the petition to God for His guidance.
You have not really answered any of my questions, rather commenting upon my beliefs with different questions. Perhaps you might like to state the basis of your clear hostility to the LDS Church? Who or what is your God? How do Latter Day Saints intrude on your life or restrict your freedom to live in the way you opt for?
Up until now I have not quoted from The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. I would again urge you to properly investigate the Church, read the Book of Mormon in the light of Moroni 10:4 which reads: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”. That is how I came to know the Book of Mormon to be true. You too can know the peace and joy that reading it can bring to your life, be a doer rather than a complainer.
Good evening Chris,
So you agree, the bible is the word of god as interrupted by man.
You then also understand why your religion suffers from so much anger as your religion encourages legislators to vote for your definition of marriage. To that end, you deserve all the hate you receive from which as you are enforcing your beliefs on everyone else.
As already stated, this is your gods definition of religion, I say again YOUR gods definition.
Doesn’t matter how you dress it up, you altered gods directive to fit mans law.
I thought it was pretty clear, your religions infringement of others rights.
Why would we need to move to the Book of Mormons when we already agree that Mormons do not recognize gay rights?
Hello Ted,
I am not sure whether your first line is facetious or a genuine mistake in that you have used the word “interrupted.” Many, possibly most Bible scholars accept that the Bible has got errors, misinterpretations and omissions. The great strength of the LDS position is that The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and stands together with the Bible as witnesses of the truth, whether you personally accept this is basically irrelevant – It is the truth. For this relationship see Ezekiel 37:19. Through revelation from God we know that this verse refers to these two books.
How you arrive at your statement regarding my understanding in paragraph 2 I fail to fathom. Down through the centuries Marriage has been recognised by all civilised people as being between a Man & a Woman, it is not just the LDS view; it is a view held by the vast majority of people throughout the World.
You say “this is your Gods definition” – in fact He is the God of us all including yourself. You should remember that! In Genesis 20:2 we, including you & I are commanded “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.” The plural “Gods” in this sense relates to man at that time worshipping Graven images etc. Today mans Gods are what ‘they make’ of them, Cars, Money, Property, Pop Stars etc. etc.
I “dress” nothing up, I am purely telling you the way it is in accordance with Gods Law, as contained in the scriptures and revealed through His servants the Prophets.
Within the Law we all have freedom to choose the way we live and our lifestyles. Personally I would add as long as our actions do not infringe upon the rights of others. The LDS Church is not denying your right to live what ever lifestyle you choose. In actual fact Homosexual people are trying to force society to accept their unnatural way of life as normal, as witness the violent confrontation over Proposition 8 in California.
In my previous notes I said “The Church SUPPORTED legislation that homosexuals should NOT be discriminated against when it comes to matters of employment and housing. So we do recognise Gay Rights but Gods Law that marriage should be between one man & one woman is Gods way, He did not create a third sex, hence we sustain Gods law and want to see it enshrined in the law of the land.
I have written before that God and His Church love the Homosexual as a Man but not his sexual practices. When He place Adam & Eve upon the Earth he commanded them to go forth and multiply, meaning to procreate, to have children. Homosexual relationships cannot be a marriage because this would be impossible for them to do.
I do not see why they have a problem and a need to be so in the face of modern society, they are now largely treated as more that equal, why not just get on and live their lives and let the rest of society also get on with their own?
Good morning Chris,
You are correct, that should have read “Interpreted”.
Trying to condense your reply into four points;
Mormons, let alone any other religion, do not have the copyright on marriage. That being said, you do not get to dictate to any legislative body of how “Your” god wants all non-believers to live.
Man was created in Gods image, which means everything we are or could ever be, is a part of god. Whether it is love or hate, heterosexual or homosexual, we are gods image. Hence god is full of as much heterosexual love as he is homosexual love.
Again, all religious texts have been translated by man which you agreed to and in conjunction full of error. To that, how did you select which ones are in error?
You argue that homosexuals should just move on? It is just as easy to argue that Mormons should just move on.
Well what a good start; you conceded that I was right on something. Unfortunately, without wishing to sound arrogant I humbly submit that I am right on all matters that we have discussed.
No, I agree, in a worldly legal definition no one has a copyright on man made marriages be they civil or of any other non LDS faiths. However the LDS Church through Gods Prophet does have sole rights to marriage that is recognised by God, which are performed in His Holy Temples for Time & Eternity. Many man made marriage services actually state “until death us do part” or words to that effect. The Law of both of our countries recognise that a marriage is at an end when one of the parties dies. A faithful Latter Day Saint considers his or her marriage in full force even after the passing of a loved companion.
Man was indeed created in Gods image, and marriage became a basis, Gods way for the continuing male, female relationship, enabling them to carry out Gods command to multiply and replenish the Earth. Man was also given free agency to choose, they could follow Gods path leading to Eternal Life within the Celestial Kingdom or they could choose other paths of their own choosing; this would mean that they could not qualify for this exalted state. Without knowledge of the True Gospel some have chosen very good paths and will be rewarded accordingly. Others have chosen sinful paths, sometimes in error, often wilfully. Sadly Homosexuals, whether innocently through lack of knowledge or understanding, possibly even in wilful disobedience to Gods Law, fit somewhere in the latter groupings. They were born in Gods image but sadly they no longer reflect it. Certainly even if the law of our Countries finally concede to pressure, their ‘marriage’ will not be a lawful Eternal one in Gods eyes. He of course recognises that they would be lawful under civil law.
When we arrive at the Judgement Bar of God and have to answer for our actions in our mortal lives I personally would probably struggle even unable to justify some of the things I have done in my life. I doubt that you will be able to justify your position, it is untenable.
As for your “religious texts’ comment, I think you need to more carefully read my comments again, they are as follows:
“You appear to have misread what I wrote. I will simplify it for you. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Other Editions of the Bible, The Koran and the Tanakh etc. are all sources that can supply insight. The Bible has been translated by many people over the years and contains some errors and omissions. We can determine the truth by listening to Gods Prophet here on the Earth today”.
The beauty of our position is that we have moved on, but only in accordance with Gods Law. On that we stand firm. The Church is true and today we have a Prophet who leads it in the person of President Thomas S Monson. Please grasp this simple truth and investigate before it becomes eternally too late. At the moment you are only grasping at straws. You have had, not only my testimony but also of Shirlee and others that have responded. I again affirm to you that God lives, That Jesus Christ is our Lord & Saviour and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Lords true Church here upon the Earth today and Jesus Christ stands at its head, with Thomas S Monson as His Prophet who presides over the Church at this time. You are criticising without proper knowledge of what you are speaking about, your claims have no basis in fact. I lovingly invite you to properly investigate the Church, you will be amazed at how wrong you have been.
When keeping with your faith, i have no doubt all your responses are in truth and correctness. However when we review your books at face value against your statements, you do not display the same truth and correctness.
You acknowledge you do not have a copyright on marriage outside of your religion, yet the actions of your religion believe otherwise as they attempt to enforce their marriage code on non-believers.
So we are the image of god, do you mean only in body or do you also mean in action and in thoughts as well?
So you acknowledge the bible is the word of god with limited error. Fine enough, so my follow-up questions would be, what are the limited errors and who determined what these errors are?
If i am understanding you correctly, you say i am grasping at straws, however from side, i am looking for answers. The questions I ask are as written in the bible, yet you seem to discredit.
Dont get me wrong, I am greatly enjoying our conversations and value your insight, however, your responses are only one step-up from the missionaries who come to my door and have no responses other than “I’ll get back to you”.
Hi Ted,
My problem with your first statement is your claim to have reviewed LDS “books.” From your many statements and questions and failure to correctly read my replies I can see clearly that you have not prayerfully read with an open mind and an honest desire to know the actual truth.
Where marriage is concerned our beliefs go much deeper that either Civil marriage or indeed those conducted by other Churches. I have previously explained this to you. The Church is not trying to enforce our concept of marriage onto anyone; rather we are looking to keep the Status Quo in that marriage be only between a man and a woman. The USA legislators may well reject the Church supported motion, and that will be their right. (Other organizations also support that view). If you or indeed anyone else wants to live in a same gender relationship, then again that is your choice.
We are created in the image of God. Man has free agency and his thoughts and ways are quite often in accord with his thoughts and ways; However, many choose to live, think and act in ways that are contrary to His will, that is the exercise of free agency and is their right. A faithful Latter Day Saint will be striving to live in accordance with His Holy will. The Church strives to call these people to repent and come unto Christ, which indeed is our right.
I personally do not see that the Bible supports your stance in some respects it totally condemns your views.
I am flattered that you see my responses as “one step up from the missionaries,” However I must modesty refute this, the only difference is that being retired I have more time to reply. Whereas they have been called to serve, they are normally quite young and generally are preaching a simple message and testimony of the Gospel and the Lords restored Church. That is over simplified but makes the point. There is nothing wrong with the “I’ll get back to you response” an off the cuff reply may be misleading, even incorrect. Surely in a desire to know the truth it is better to wait for an accurate and correct reply.
I will be away from home over Christmas, so if you respond to this ‘tome’ I may not be able to reply straight away. Enjoy your Christmas however you celebrate it.
Good evening Chris,
In relation to your first paragraph, I read your books at face value. If it says the sky is Blue, I take it to mean the sky is Blue and not purple. By doing so you can rest assured I take the meaning as it is written.
In relation to your next statement, would you agree that I have no right to enforce my definition of marriage on you than you can enforce yours upon me? If so, then we are in agreement.
In response to your last paragraph, I agree, there is nothing wrong with “I will get back to you” provided they get back to you, which they do not.
Hello Ted,
Well New Years Eve and all is well (?) I hope that you had a nice Christmas.
Many books can in fact be read at face value but some books need an enquiring even an open mind. Holy Scripture needs both these, plus a genuine desire to know the truth. When we are speaking of Gods revealed truth then sincere prayer is also a vital ingredient. See Moroni 10:4~5 in the Book of Mormon.
No one has the right to force any viewpoint onto another. Unfortunately there are those who are trying to coerce legislators into legalising ‘same sex’ relationships into law and onto an equal footing with the divinely instituted state of marriage, that, being the marriage between one man and one woman. The Church as a witness of and upholder of Gods law is resisting that motion and seeking for the status quo. That is not forcing our beliefs on anyone.
In your final comment, I actually agree with you. If the missionaries in question promise “I will get back to you” then they should get back to you. The failure to get back could have been due to having been moved to another area, but that said they should have acted on the promise. Sadly none of us is perfect. Present company excepted of course.
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